Not By Works

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Sir, let me explain and elaborate.... I will try to be succinct.

No I am not supporting the idea of purgatory as all.

Life after death is not what is in view here at all, we must be careful to not add to the text, people make a word mean one thing over and over, words have different semantics depending on the surrounding text, I hope you would agree?

It my understanding that Greek word is timoria, this is the only time it is used in the New Testament ... carries the same idea as in verse 27 fiery indignation.

The author is fiercely driving home how much God is indignant and rightly so, towards those who try back to the law.

τιμωρέω - timōréō [tim-o-reh'-o]
Short Definition :
properly, to protect one's honor, i.e., to avenge (inflict a penalty)

Notice..... Verses 28-30 deal with the idea that if God dealt severely with those who violated the Law of Moses, then how do you think He would feel about those who purposely leave the blood of the new covenant?

I also think this verse really drives it home.... vs. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

So the indignation to inflict a penalty in this life is about God's correction and He has every right to correct.

Saphira and Ananias come to mind.
Well there is not only the term "fiery indignation" in that passage but also JUDGEMENT.

27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Correction is NOT judgement. Wasn't our sins judged on a Cross in the body of Christ?

Also, we must always keep in mind who this letter is initially addressed to. The HEBREWS. Verse 30 says this:30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Judgement will start at the house of Israel, God's chosen people. We must remember that there is a difference between God's people, and God's Children. You cannot be a Child of God unless you are born again. Not every Jew was born again, although ALL are considered God's chosen people.


I think it's a very tough sell to say these people are saved and the punishment only applies to THIS life. These people continued in sin. What sin? The sin of rejecting the sufficiency of Christ's atoning Sacrifice, and wanted to continue to sacrifice animals to atone for their sin.

I don't believe they were saved to begin with. They had the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth, but they didn't have THE TRUTH, Jesus Christ.

Tell me, do YOU have VENGEANCE on your kids? You discipline them, but I'm sure you don't seek revenge on them for things they have done. You think our Heavenly Father has REVENGE on His Kids?
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
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Address the post please. But to answer your question. It is GOD that works inus both to will and do HIS good pleasure.
Since it is God working in us then the level and magnitude of said work is not to be criticized, maligned or condemned, for it is all the work of God.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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Thank you....you are very kind.

It always struck me that those who worked less were given the same wage and significance of it....honestly I wonder?

The first shall be last and last shall be first.

Reminds me of a friend who arrived very late to wedding reception and there were no seats left so they sat him and his wife at the head table with the bride and groom.

True story.
=============================================
same thing happened to hub and I many years ago, when we attended a funeral, -
there were no seats left and so we were invited to sit in the pew with family.
:):)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,246
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To me all sin is willful.
Whether it be sins of commission or omission.
Jesus made that clear.

We have no excuse.

The willful sin that people will be judged by is the rejection of the once for all sacrifice and not for the sins of commission and omission as believers.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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well BillG,
before conversion, we are most always held accountable in some form or another for our sinning ways -
but, after conversion, we definitely have no 'excuse', we are on a time-table of learning/walking in
our Saviour's Ways, and how to obey them, but we still reap what we sow'.
as it is written;
GAL. 6:7.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

there ARE 'sins' of ignorance, and if not forgiven, most of us would not be here, living upon this earth -
but we have a definite 'duty' after conversion of 'walking in The Light', which means, obeying our
Saviour and The Holy Spirit convicting us and following His Holy ways, this is the crux of our New Spiritual Journey...
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
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To me all sin is willful.
Whether it be sins of commission or omission.
Jesus made that clear.

We have no excuse.

The willful sin that people will be judged by is the rejection of the once for all sacrifice and not for the sins of commission and omission as believers.
There is such a thing as willfully sinning in ignorance:

1 Timothy 1:13
"Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief."


Even though an unbelieving person is sinning willfully it can still be from a position of ignorance vs. sinning willfully in the face of the full knowledge and illumination of the gospel. The former can be forgiven, as it was for Paul. The latter ultimately can not.

Yes, all sin is willful. But not all sin is done in ignorance. That is the important distinction that must be made.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,246
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well BillG,
before conversion, we are most always held accountable in some form or another for our sinning ways -
but, after conversion, we definitely have no 'excuse', we are on a time-table of learning/walking in
our Saviour's Ways, and how to obey them, but we still reap what we sow'.
as it is written;
GAL. 6:7.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

there ARE 'sins' of ignorance, and if not forgiven, most of us would not be here, living upon this earth -
but we have a definite 'duty' after conversion of 'walking in The Light', which means, obeying our
Saviour and The Holy Spirit convicting us and following His Holy ways, this is the crux of our New Spiritual Journey...
And how does that negate what I said?

I have no issues with God saying when I got it wrong "Bill that was wrong"
But truth is for me I have no excuse.

Yes we have a duty out of love to walk in the Spirit and when we get it wrong he tells us, we confess it.

This side of eternity we will sin whether it be of commission or omission but to me we have no excuse because it's willful as belivers because Jesus has shown us the way.

But it's covered by Jesus as believers.

As I said for me the only wilful sin that is not forgiven is the rejection of Jesus and his sacrifice for our sins.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,246
3,988
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There is such a thing as willfully sinning in ignorance:

1 Timothy 1:13
"Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief."


Even though an unbelieving person is sinning willfully it can still be from a position of ignorance vs. sinning willfully in the face of the full knowledge and illumination of the gospel. The former can be forgiven, as it was for Paul. The latter ultimately can not.

Yes, all sin is willful. But not all sin is done in ignorance. That is the important distinction that must be made.
I'm talking about believers and not non believers.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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He has one of those cabins on permanent reserve for me. And all his kitties will mysteriously vanish, only to re-surface in my cabin.. lol
The Lord's children are always welcome for free.....workers for must work to even get close to the gate ;) but never able to enter!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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what do you do for work again? i dont make that even in a month that you make in a week.

oh well maybe i will get ran over by a bus tonight so i dont have to worry about finances and affording a family.

its friday afternoon here is what i got: coffee, milk and water :sleep: im feeling like that grumpy man on the porch shaking his fist at everything lolz. i think i might of had a psychological addiction to alcohol thats why i was feeling so anxious. i never drank daily only on weekend and not even like passout much
A machinist by trade....parts for jets, missiles, at one time space shuttle etc.....
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,246
3,988
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The Lord's children are always welcome for free.....workers for must work to even get close to the gate ;) but never able to enter!
Isaiah 55:1-3

An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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I have no issues with God saying when I got it wrong "Bill that was wrong"
But truth is for me I have no excuse.
Even as a believer you do have an excuse if you are still sinning out of ignorance. So don't be so hard on yourself.

Until a believer grows to a certain level of maturity in a particular area they will still be sinning in ignorance.

Philippians 3:16 NIV
"Only let us live up to what we have already attained. "


The point being, you're expected to live up without excuse to that which God has already accomplished in your life, not to what he is still perfecting in you. Until then you are sinning in ignorance and weakness and immaturity, not sinning as a mature believer whom God has delivered from a particular area of sin.

You're still responsible for sin in your weakened, imperfect areas of struggle, but God's mercy is more readily available to you in that state than it is afterwards when you grow out of that sin. For example, the believer in whom God has completed the good work of delivering them from drunkenness has little excuse if he then willfully gets drunk. That's still sinning willfully, but now it's not in ignorance and immaturity as it was before.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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And how does that negate what I said?

I have no issues with God saying when I got it wrong "Bill that was wrong"
But truth is for me I have no excuse.

Yes we have a duty out of love to walk in the Spirit and when we get it wrong he tells us, we confess it.

This side of eternity we will sin whether it be of commission or omission but to me we have no excuse because it's willful as belivers because Jesus has shown us the way.

But it's covered by Jesus as believers.

As I said for me the only wilful sin that is not forgiven is the rejection of Jesus and his sacrifice for our sins.
==================================================
after 'true-conversion, we don't ever 'willfully sin' against our Holy Saviour in what would or could be called,
spitting in His face and denying His-God-given Grace' - if we should do such a thing, then it is evident that we never knew Him...

if you can find a way/excuse around this behavior, then good on you mate, and I will add, you will most certainly
pay the price for this un-holy act...