Not By Works

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
See, here is where you were pushing the Calvinist's view of this subject. Instead of being preserved by Christ despite unfaithfulness as you said earlier, now you are saying the unfaithful person was never saved to begin with.

In the passage he tells these believing, anointed people who know the truth that he's talking to to remain in Christ.

1 John 2:19 KJV
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."


1 John 2:26-28 KJV
"26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

That's an apparent contradiction in scripture. He telling true believers, who supposedly don't/can't leave because they are true believers (vs.19), to not be deceived and to abide in him, just as the truth they have has taught them to do (vs.26-28). But since this is the same author saying all these things in the same passage of scripture we know it's not a contradiction. It's a misinterpretation of vs. 19 on the part of once saved always saved doctrine.

Obviously, to keep John from contradicting himself, we can't interpret vs.19 as meaning 'each and every person who leaves the faith was never saved to begin with, no exceptions'. Vs.26-28 keep that from being what he means. He must be talking about a specific group of people and circumstances in vs.19 and not writing hard and fast doctrine.
1 I am not calvinist, far from it

2.the passage says what it says, whoever does not believe is antichrist, and they left because they were never of us

stop twisting the word to support your believe and just take the word for what it says.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Jesus when speaking with Paul said unto him, get behind me Satan. The Book of Matthew chapter 16
He spoke to peter

he said peter spoke satans words, not Jesus words

in john 6 jesus put judas in the group who did not believe

John 6 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
He spoke to peter

he said peter spoke satans words, not Jesus words

in john 6 jesus put judas in the group who did not believe

John 6 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him
https://beta.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=+John+6&version=ESV;MOUNCE

Jesus said in verse 70, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

Jesus chose even Judas knowing he is a devil. Whom he later told to go and do what he must do and do it quickly.
How would we receive our Salvation through the blood of Christ were it not for the cross?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Justification is gained by trusting in Jesus for the forgiveness of sin, and it is kept by continuing to trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. You can't stop trusting in Jesus for justification and still have the benefit of Jesus in justification. So, are you saying this argument makes trusting in Jesus a works gospel? If so, giving us the verse that says that will be helpful to your case.
Justification is a status conferred by God when we accept the free gift of salvation, the gift is accepting the payment that Jesus made on the sinner's behalf. The trust and belief is once with continued result.

All sin was forgiven at the cross... when we receive that gift is when we are saved.

Salvation is about accepting Christ's redeeming work for oneself, turning from sin and asking for forgiveness is not the Gospel, that is
a Gospel of works,

The Gospel is completely about being persuaded/convicted/ convinced of our utter inability to save oneself and believing upon the work of Christ Jesus as completely efficacious to save.

It is a one time event, born once physically, born once spiritually and from then on we are in God's hands and if lets us fall into error and sin, He is also more than able to correct us or take us out of this life if need be.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,377
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See, here is where you were pushing the Calvinist's view of this subject. Instead of being preserved by Christ despite unfaithfulness as you said earlier, now you are saying the unfaithful person was never saved to begin with.

In the passage he tells these believing, anointed people who know the truth that he's talking to to remain in Christ.

1 John 2:19 KJV
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."


1 John 2:26-28 KJV
"26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

That's an apparent contradiction in scripture. He telling true believers, who supposedly don't/can't leave because they are true believers (vs.19), to not be deceived and to abide in him, just as the truth they have has taught them to do (vs.26-28). But since this is the same author saying all these things in the same passage of scripture we know it's not a contradiction. It's a misinterpretation of vs. 19 on the part of once saved always saved doctrine.

Obviously, to keep John from contradicting himself, we can't interpret vs.19 as meaning 'each and every person who leaves the faith was never saved to begin with, no exceptions'. Vs.26-28 keep that from being what he means. He must be talking about a specific group of people and circumstances in vs.19 and not writing hard and fast doctrine.

Neither am I a CALVINISTS. I only believe in Three, points of the Five points Calvinist view. So the Armenians will not claim me, and neither with the Calvinist, because of the two points of they view that I disagree with. So what do the call me? Only a Born Again Christian, and as far as I am conscerned, we evangelials a BURIED that stupid argurment between the Armenians and Calvinists in the early 80's. So you can stop trying to drag that rediculous argument ever again. It is Dead and Buried.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
https://beta.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=+John+6&version=ESV;MOUNCE

Jesus said in verse 70, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

Jesus chose even Judas knowing he is a devil. Whom he later told to go and do what he must do and do it quickly.
How would we receive our Salvation through the blood of Christ were it not for the cross?
Yep

he chose him to walk But judas still has to believe to be saved,

and he served a purpose

he is called the son of perdition, the antichrist has the same title,
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Eternal is forever, if it can be lost or forfeit, it is not eternal
If you drive a car that will run forever only for awhile does that mean that car really does not run forever? I think what that means is you are no longer in a car that runs forever. So it is with eternal life. Having it doesn't mean you'll always have it no matter what. It means what you have, while you have it, will never come to an end. That's why you and I should hang on to it by continuing to trust in Jesus for justification.

god did not promise of give us conditional life as you are preaching
Eternal life most certainly is conditional.
It is conditional on trusting in Jesus.
What it is not conditional on is earning it through works of righteousness.
Don't confuse the two.

Next time you hear a pastor say eternal life is not conditional on anything at all, set him straight.
 
Dec 1, 2019
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James 2:14-26. Faith without works is dead

We have faith and from having faith we do works. The quality and quantity of our works does not save us. God's grace is what saves us. The idea is that we strive to live how Jesus taught us. Yes, we are sinners and will fall but are we striving is the question. Let us use an example from our favorite sin of fornication. We know it is wrong to fornicate. What do we do to remove and limit ourselves from falling to this sin? Are we striving? If we are striving, then we can trust in God's love and mercy even if we fall, as long as we get back up and keep striving. Now let us say we have faith in Jesus and that He has purchased for us eternal life. We know it is wrong to fornicate but we do it anyway because we have faith and believe we are saved. The point here is that we are not striving. So faith without works is dead. We cannot have faith, yet go on enjoying ourselves in our sin and believe we are saved.
John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

The key for us as sinners is to strive.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If you drive a car that will run forever only for awhile does that mean that car really does not run forever? I think what that means is you are no longer in a car that runs forever. So it is with eternal life. Having it doesn't mean you'll always have it no matter what. It means what you have, while you have it, will never come to an end. That's why you and I should hang on to it by continuing to trust in Jesus for justification.


Eternal life most certainly is conditional.
It is conditional on trusting in Jesus.
What it is not conditional on is earning it through works of righteousness.
Don't confuse the two.

Next time you hear a pastor say eternal life is not conditional on anything at all, set him straight.
your trying to equate god with a car

i think that about says it all

no car is promised to run forever and if someone say so and you believe it you are a fool
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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James 2:14-26. Faith without works is dead

We have faith and from having faith we do works. The quality and quantity of our works does not save us. God's grace is what saves us. The idea is that we strive to live how Jesus taught us. Yes, we are sinners and will fall but are we striving is the question. Let us use an example from our favorite sin of fornication. We know it is wrong to fornicate. What do we do to remove and limit ourselves from falling to this sin? Are we striving? If we are striving, then we can trust in God's love and mercy even if we fall, as long as we get back up and keep striving. Now let us say we have faith in Jesus and that He has purchased for us eternal life. We know it is wrong to fornicate but we do it anyway because we have faith and believe we are saved. The point here is that we are not striving. So faith without works is dead. We cannot have faith, yet go on enjoying ourselves in our sin and believe we are saved.
John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

The key for us as sinners is to strive.
What exactly are striving over?

And.... what happens to God's children if they DON'T strive?
 
Dec 1, 2019
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What exactly are striving over?

And.... what happens to God's children if they DON'T strive?
I am not sure what your first question is asking. Strive meaning to always do God's will and when we fail to do it, we pick ourselves back up and keep trying.

Let us look at an example. A man has faith, goes to church every week, reads scripture, etc. The man knows the word of God, the man is aware of God's will. The man encounters a homeless man begging, someone seeking a donation, volunteering of time, etc.(any work or Christian action) yet the man fails to act. The man is greedy and keeps his money for himself, etc. He is too busy to help someone because he has to go watch football, etc. Now we all fall short in doing God's will, there is no disputing that. However, if we willingly in our heart refuse to "live" like a Christian(works) then we have a problem.
Refer back to John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

There is not one of us who judge another here on earth, like I said earlier it is not the quantity or quality of our works that saves us. But if one says they have faith but there is no action, the question becomes, do they? So if one has faith, they have works.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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1 Peter 2:25
Once you were like sheep who wandered away. But now you have turned to your Shepherd, the Guardian of your souls.

Those who believe we can lose our Salvation when the LORD our God is the guardian of our souls , can you explain who is more powerful to do such a thing ?
...xox...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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That’s why he chose judas, even knowing judas would never believe. Just like he chose Pharoah against moses.
John 13:10 -Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean...” 18 I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled. He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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1 Peter 2:25
Once you were like sheep who wandered away. But now you have turned to your Shepherd, the Guardian of your souls.

Those who believe we can lose our Salvation when the LORD our God is the guardian of our souls , can you explain who is more powerful to do such a thing ?
...xox...
I believe it is more about trust. God is much more powerful than man. I believe most Christians will acknowledge that. The blessedness of trusting God is repeated time and again in the Bible and I wonder if some of the reason may be because many people struggle to trust God and trust in man or themselves more than the Lord.