Not By Works

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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So Chris. Believers do not become elect because they last . They last because they truly believe, which means they are Gods elect. Don’t ask me how election works, God knows.
Ofcourse believers don't become ELECT because they last. I never stated as such. They were elect from before time began. But WE don't know specifically who God's Elect are. We operate within the dimension of TIME, whereas God is the Alpha and Omega who knows the end from the beginning.
But.....only those who last ARE the Elect (not become, but ARE).
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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And the seed that never took roots, is not a Born Again CHRISTIAN. Born Again, causes the SEED TO TAKE ROOT, in HIS ETERNAL SECURITY.
You now have a timing issue. So you are saying that a period of time is necessary between faith in Christ (conversion) and being born again? What then changed at conversion? When did you become born again? How long after your conversion? Can you remember when this was?
 
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And the seed that never took roots, is not a Born Again CHRISTIAN. Born Again, causes the SEED TO TAKE ROOT, in HIS ETERNAL SECURITY.
Yes, my point was that we are not elect because we continue in the faith, we continue in the faith because we truly believe, having been born of God.
 
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Ofcourse believers don't become ELECT because they last. I never stated as such. They were elect from before time began. But WE don't know specifically who God's Elect are. We operate within the dimension of TIME, whereas God is the Alpha and Omega who knows the end from the beginning.
But.....only those who last ARE the Elect (not become, but ARE).
That's basically what I've been saying. But you seem to say that being elect is conditioned on perserverance. If I misunderstood you, I apologize

Is this what you hold? That election is conditional upon perserverance?
 
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You now have a timing issue. So you are saying that a period of time is necessary between faith in Christ (conversion) and being born again? What then changed at conversion? When did you become born again? How long after your conversion? Can you remember when this was?
As I said earlier, pisteuo does not always mean the type of faith that converts. The same verb is used in James 2:19
 
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There is a distinction. Demons believe in God but the way of salvation is not open to them. Nor can there be and works therefrom for obvious reasons. The Parable of the sower shows a difference - we are dealing with mankind, the object of God's salvation. These ones received the word with great joy. So yes they did believe. But how does someone get deeper roots? Growth. By searching out for and drinking the living waters. Mere temptation (what I have been warning about in other posts) was sufficient to uproot these and they fell away. They never took their salvation seriously. They never went on the path of sanctification by the Holy Spirit. For if they did, they might have endured. So, yes, sins (the outcome of yielding to temptation) can cause a falling away from the faith.
James was taking devil's faith, and applying it to the type of human faith that equals mere acceptance of a fact or body of facts, without any inward reality or effect on ones heart

head knowledge and mental assent in this case

pisteuo apparently has more than one meaning in its semantic domain
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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There is a distinction. Demons believe in God but the way of salvation is not open to them. Nor can there be and works therefrom for obvious reasons. The Parable of the sower shows a difference - we are dealing with mankind, the object of God's salvation. These ones received the word with great joy. So yes they did believe. But how does someone get deeper roots? Growth. By searching out for and drinking the living waters. Mere temptation (what I have been warning about in other posts) was sufficient to uproot these and they fell away. They never took their salvation seriously. They never went on the path of sanctification by the Holy Spirit. For if they did, they might have endured. So, yes, sins (the outcome of yielding to temptation) can cause a falling away from the faith.
"Demons believe" was James parroting a counter argument by others who were arguing against belief as sufficient to save.
 
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"Demons believe" was James parroting a counter argument by others who were arguing against belief as sufficient to save.
believing in one God (as a doctrinal creed) is not sufficient to save. In fact, no doctrinal creed is sufficient to save. We are not saved by adhering to creeds, we are saved by faith, personal trust in the One True God. 🙂

James is not parroting a counter argument, he is building on his argument.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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That's basically what I've been saying. But you seem to say that being elect is conditioned on perserverance. If I misunderstood you, I apologize

Is this what you hold? That election is conditional upon perserverance?
Great I think we are getting somewhere!! ELECTION is not conditional upon perseverance because ELECTION has already been settled from before time began. We don't earn Election.

That is my position ^^ above.

NOW.......

1) Only God know who his elect are. We don't.
2) Only those who continue to persevere (keep the faith) are the ones who are saved. To those who overcome, he will give of the tree of life.
3) Not all believers overcome. Some fall by the wayside and draw back.
4) Those who overcome were ALWAYS ELECT.
5) Those who fall back were NEVER ELECT.
6) Since we dont know the identities, specifically, of the Elect, we persevere.

Faith is not a ONE TIME EXERCISE of it. FAITH is a CONTINUING TO BELIEVE.



.....
CAPS not for shouting, but for emphasis.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Romans 9
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Nobody born onto this earth knows/knew which category they fall into in Romans 9 above. And how can they. This is entirely within the purview of God. As far as the Gospel is concerned, we preach the gospel to every living creature. Shout it from the rooftops.

Many have come to saving faith who were quite literally dead in their sins. Looking at the lives they came from, mass-murderers, rapists, fraudsters, thieves ----- the gospel of Grace has changes hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of these people due to God's grace. They are unrecognisable (what they were to what they have become). We don't fully know who is elect and who not. All we do is preach Christ and Him Crucified. The Elect will always respond (whether now or later). Some who are NOT elect will also respond, but they will not go onto completion but fall back. It doesn't mean that they NEVER believed. It means that they eventually stopped believing.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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Great I think we are getting somewhere!! ELECTION is not conditional upon perseverance because ELECTION has already been settled from before time began. We don't earn Election.

That is my position ^^ above.

NOW.......

1) Only God know who his elect are. We don't.
2) Only those who continue to persevere (keep the faith) are the ones who are saved. To those who overcome, he will give of the tree of life.
3) Not all believers overcome. Some fall by the wayside and draw back.
4) Those who overcome were ALWAYS ELECT.
5) Those who fall back were NEVER ELECT.
6) Since we dont know the identities, specifically, of the Elect, we persevere.

Faith is not a ONE TIME EXERCISE of it. FAITH is a CONTINUING TO BELIEVE.



.....
CAPS not for shouting, but for emphasis.
I agree with your position as stated in the first section, (before the points). Full agreement with that.

As to the points.

1. Agree

2. Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. ( 1 John 5:4)

3. Adherence to a creed or doctrine does not save. Being born of God through faith saves. So not all who believe in the sense of adherance to a creed or set of doctrines are believers.

4. Agree

5. Agree.

6. We perservere because of God’s Grace and because we love Him. Any other power or motive will not sustain us in the evil day.

Agree with the last sentence, but I believe the new birth and justification is a one time, finished event
 
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Is salvation a one time event or a process?
The new birth and justification is a one time event. Becoming a child of God is a one time event. So you are saved once. But the final completion is yet future, when our vile bodies will be transformed to be like Jesus’ Glorious body.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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This is laughable. It doesn't take much scrolling back on your posts to identify the hypocrisy you peddle. How you have attacked almost anybody who doesn't agree with your worldviews. With some pretty colourful language. How you haven't been banned already or sanctioned is a surprise to be honest. So it is laughable when you suddenly feel offended and play the victim here. I'm not buying it. Now we can get back to bible discussion - this matter is settled.
Because I attack gospels pal....unlike you that flat lied openly about me, what I believe and then falsely accused me of something I have never said...make no mistake, you are false, your dogma is false, and do not address me deceiver.....you owe me an open apology for LYING openly about me by saying I want to live in sin and grace at the same time......!

and whoever liked your post is just as false and contrary as you are....hand in hand supporting lying.....speaks volumes to your character as well as theirs!
 
Dec 6, 2019
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Romans 9
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Nobody born onto this earth knows/knew which category they fall into in Romans 9 above. And how can they. This is entirely within the purview of God. As far as the Gospel is concerned, we preach the gospel to every living creature. Shout it from the rooftops.

Many have come to saving faith who were quite literally dead in their sins. Looking at the lives they came from, mass-murderers, rapists, fraudsters, thieves ----- the gospel of Grace has changes hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of these people due to God's grace. They are unrecognisable (what they were to what they have become). We don't fully know who is elect and who not. All we do is preach Christ and Him Crucified. The Elect will always respond (whether now or later). Some who are NOT elect will also respond, but they will not go onto completion but fall back. It doesn't mean that they NEVER believed. It means that they eventually stopped believing.
But do you hold that the ones who drew back were ever born of God?

Because your position is very close to Calvinism, unless you think the apostates were actually ever born of God.

Are you Unconditional election? Or is election based on Gods foreknowledge of what choice we would make?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,175
17,549
113
Is salvation a one time event or a process?
My bible states clearly by context, verb tense, word definitions and scripture in context that it is a ONE TIME EVENT with present continuing results.....the only thing that is a process -->ongoing, daily sanctification based upon growth and maturity dia the transformational process described in Romans 12:1-2....
 
Dec 6, 2019
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My bible states clearly by context, verb tense, word definitions and scripture in context that it is a ONE TIME EVENT with present continuing results.....the only thing that is a process -->ongoing, daily sanctification based upon growth and maturity dia the transformational process described in Romans 12:1-2....
I Agree! Will add that there is also a future part when God switches out my vile body for a glorious new model 😀
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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The new birth and justification is a one time event. Becoming a child of God is a one time event. So you are saved once. But the final completion is yet future, when our vile bodies will be transformed to be like Jesus’ Glorious body.
As others are saying, the soul is saved, the spirit is regenerated in a one time event after trusting the Lord as Saviour and the body receives in the future it's glorification.