Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

yes finland is really good. my advice is come during winter time to northern finland "lapland" its called. you said you liked all winter sports so we got many winter resorts for skiing snowboarding and hiking and so on.

i say all cities are good to visit except helsinki there are no finns left there.

yes same things apply to finland very clean and safe. welcome Bill if you guys ever do visit say where

Excellent... I like historical, places with old world charm.. I think it would have that to offer too

 

[Pisteuo]

You better watch yourself ... I am going to leave my phone and go to my computer then we will see about your rather slanderous comment

Maybe, you could ask some right questions that would unite us instead of dividing us.

 

[EleventhHour]

Maybe, you could ask some right questions that would unite us instead of dividing us.

Okay on my computer which I was trying to avoid... darn phone

What is the right question

 

[Chris1975]

As I said, it was a general comment not directed at anyone

next time don’t assume know know people’s motive, that’s one of the reasons I do not read what you post anymore.

If you don't read what I post, then don't reply to my posts concerning something you didn't read. Rather create an entirely new post. Because reading (post 120444 and 120445) again, you make a very strong implication in 120445 (1 minute after posting 120444). If you were honest about this it was 100% directed against me. That's the truth.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

Do you teach sinless perfection? Do you believe that anything short of living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) equates to "still slaves to sin/not pure in heart?" Christians start out as babes in Christ and the goal is progression to maturity in Christ.

We were coming from Titus 2:11-14 and everything was fine. Let's stick with what is written. That is what I teach.

Christ suffered for us leaving us an example that we should follow in His steps: who committed no sin, neither was any deceit found in His mouth, when insulted He did not retaliate, when He suffered He made no threats instead He kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges justly. He bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we being dead to sins would live to righteousness; by His wounds we have been healed. We all like sheep were going astray [rebelling], but now we have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of our souls.

And there's the new way of life, in the Spirit. Live in it and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature just like the Holy Spirit, through Paul, said.

You are right, the Kingdom of God is not the Magic Kingdom. The foundation has to be laid. Repenting from acts that lead to death is part of that foundation. Then we are to go on to perfection and I have been commanded to be perfect as My Father in Heaven is, just as you have been also. But the way for me to fall is open to me just as to the Hebrews, the Corinthians, the 7 churches and everyone who professes Jesus Christ as Lord. In fact, most who profess Him as Lord are houses built on sand, not doing the will of the Father in Heaven or putting the Word of Jesus in to practice. Just a fact. The seed that was scattered along the pathway - I'm in no danger of that. Nor am I in any danger of being as seed sown among rocky places. I've persevered. That does not mean that I am as the seed sown in good soil. It would be stupid of me to think that being as the seed sown among thorns could not happen in my case. The worries, riches, pleasures and desires for things other than His Word could still enter in to my life and choke the Word so that it became unfruitful while still living.

Personally, I like a little risk. Very risky to leave Egypt, have no homes, then go to war against indigenous folks. But I won't stand on the East side of Jordan pretending the land has been taken, either. Ain't no Philistines in Heaven, so the Promised Land isn't that.

My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me. There's the safety. Those are the ones who won't be snatched out of His hand. Could I turn back to Egypt? Sure could. I'm no robot. I could do what Vashti did. It's the same thing the Christian church did. Jesus isn't Lord for most. Everybody clamors for Him as Savior though. And everyone who thinks they couldn't fall or is absolutely going to attain to the "out resurrection" is deceived. Before the very end for Paul, it was "if by any means I may attain to the resurrection of the dead." And there fat Christians sit claiming they got it, many of them outright self-willed and rebellious. That's not true to the tenor of the entire canon. Right until the final chapter, it's all about conduct. And that conduct, i.e., what we do, has to be by faith.

But if you are still interested in bringing this down to the level of "me", more of my story can be found here:
https://christianchat.com/testimonies/my-conversion.189273/

 

[Judges1318]

this is what I mean. you say truthfully that one has to believe, and continue to believe to be saved. you say that is all that is required.

but then, you keep talking, and attach works .


that is why you are a false teacher. you start out with truth, then talk yourself into a lie, then pluck 3 sentences out of a long letter to attempt to back up that lie..

I think what the problem is, you and others simply can not understand the argument, let alone agree with it. You say faith without works is okay, not knowing that faith without the evidence of works is not the saving faith you are sure it is.

 

[VCO]

Assume there are 100 believers at a point in time. 80 of these are Elect. Nobody knows exactly who God's elect are. All we know at a point in time is that these 100 people are believers.

There are bible verses warning believers (all 100 of them).
The Elect (80) will heed these and live as overcomers. These 80 people are known BY GOD, and were Elected by Him alone unto Salvation.
The others (20) will fall away as they were never Elect.

On our pilgrims journey, all that we know today is that we believe in Christ and we are part of the 100. We FOR SURE need to heed all of the warnings in the bible to make our call and election sure.

2 Peter 1
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You still do not GET IT. People who only believe in their HEAD or Intellect, are not Saved, because they have not been Born Again.

People Who Believe In Their HEART, which is a reference to believing IN THEIR HUMAN SPIRIT, ARE SAVED, by that Born Again experience.

Here are examples of ONLY BELIEVING in their Heads, which does not SAVE:

James 2:19 (HCSB)
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder.

Luke 8:26-33 (ESV)
26 Then they sailed to the country of the Gerasenes, which is opposite Galilee.
27 When Jesus had stepped out on land, there met him a man from the city who had demons. For a long time he had worn no clothes, and he had not lived in a house but among the tombs.
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him {in a worshipful position prostrate} and said with a loud voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me.”
29 For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For many a time it had seized him. He was kept under guard and bound with chains and shackles, but he would break the bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert.)
30 Jesus then asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” for many demons had entered him.
31 And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss.
32 Now a large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside, and they begged him to let them enter these. So he gave them permission.
33 Then the demons came out of the man and entered the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and drowned.

Matthew 8:28-32 (HCSB)
28 When He had come to the other side, to the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met Him as they came out of the tombs. They were so violent that no one could pass that way.
29 Suddenly they shouted, “What do You have to do with us, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”
30 Now a long way off from them, a large herd of pigs was feeding.
31 “If You drive us out,” the demons begged Him, “send us into the herd of pigs.”
32 “Go!” He told them. So when they had come out, they entered the pigs. And suddenly the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the water.

Mark 5:1-15 (HCSB)
1 Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gerasenes.
2 As soon as He got out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came out of the tombs and met Him.
3 He lived in the tombs. No one was able to restrain him anymore—even with chains—
4 because he often had been bound with shackles and chains, but had snapped off the chains and smashed the shackles. No one was strong enough to subdue him.
5 And always, night and day, he was crying out among the tombs and in the mountains and cutting himself with stones.
6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and knelt down before Him.
7 And he cried out with a loud voice, “What do You have to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You before God, don’t torment me!” {Not a contradiction because one gospel mentions 2 men, while the others only mentions the spokesperson of the Group.}
8 For He had told him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
9 “What is your name?” He asked him. “My name is Legion,” he answered Him, “because we are many.”
10 And he kept begging Him not to send them out of the region.
11 Now a large herd of pigs was there, feeding on the hillside.
12 The demons begged Him, “Send us to the pigs, so we may enter them.”
13 And He gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits came out and entered the pigs, and the herd of about 2,000 rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned there.
14 The men who tended them ran off and reported it in the town and the countryside, and people went to see what had happened.
15 They came to Jesus and saw the man who had been demon-possessed by the legion, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid.


There are the DEMONS THAT ONLY BELIEVED IN THEIR INTELLECT. Fell prostrate before HIM, called HIM "Jesus, Son of the Most High God."
So Intellectual Knowledge is not enough to SAVE THEM.


John 6:66 (NIV)
66 From this time many of His disciples turned back and no longer followed Him.


There is the SAME KIND OF BELIEF in Human Beings as the Demons, just Intellectual Belief, which is not enough to SAVE YOU.

I HAS TO BE HEART (in the human spirit) KNOWLEDGE, to SAVE YOU, which is Born Again.

John 3:1-7 (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

 

[PS]

I think what the problem is, you and others simply can not understand the argument, let alone agree with it. You say faith without works is okay, not knowing that faith without the evidence of works is not the saving faith you are sure it is.

For a few years I worked with people who had physical handicaps and others with learning difficulties. How are they going to do any works? They couldn't get out of a wheel-chair without help.

 

[Melach]

Not a problem.

Their LORD was whichever G/god they were worshiping at the time. They called the true God LORD, and they called the Golden Calf LORD, saying, from memory, "these are the gods who brought us out of Egypt."

It was a misuse of the word LORD, which unfortunately the translators have always left capitalised. (All ancient Hebrew was in capitals.)

So Baal was LORD, and the I AM was LORD.

okay now i make progress with you. maybe you get more ants with honey than vinegar is true. its a finnish proverb.

how do you personally discern which is talked about? the real LORD or the falsegod LORD?

 

[Pisteuo]

Okay on my computer which I was trying to avoid... darn phone

What is the right question

Wrong question!

 

[PS]

okay now i make progress with you. maybe you get more ants with honey than vinegar is true. its a finnish proverb.

how do you personally discern which is talked about? the real LORD or the falsegod LORD?

From what the "LORD" commanded them to do. When they followed the True God they prospered and when they followed false gods they were punished and even put into exile.

I'm closing down for the night now. Cheers.

 

[Discern]

Still waiting for you to explain how choosing to believe is not an act or work done by your own will.

I tried that a few times. Lasted less than a week most of the times. But the faith that was gifted me from God? 30 years and counting.

 

[Discern]

Having faith, perhaps in a doctor for example, is something we have, it is something we possess. It is not something we do.

We go to the doctor in the example, in faith believing, It is the doctor who does the operation, not our faith.

However, our faith in God may motivate us to work for Him, and if it does, then that is the outward evidence of our inner, invisible faith.

I hope this helps.

Good points. Some people have faith in their faith. Wrong object. Our faith must be in God, not in our ability to believe

 

[Discern]

For a few years I worked with people who had physical handicaps and others with learning difficulties. How are they going to do any works? They couldn't get out of a wheel-chair without help.

People with physical handicaps, even confined to bed can serve God through intercessory prayer for one. But it is not serving to be saved. It is serving from a loving, saved heart.

People with severe learning disabilities, can serve in whatever capacity they are able.

But they can do something, even if it’s prayer, putting out hymn books, or just being a beautiful light for Jesus in their demeanor

Again, because they are saved, not to be saved

 

[Pisteuo]

I tried that a few times. Lasted less than a week most of the times. But the faith that was gifted me from God? 30 years and counting.

So Jesus personally surrenders our lives to Himself for us, and lives our life inpired by such surrender for us? No!

He provides Grace the unmerited favor, "and" the ability to faithe, but we have to fulfill the requirements of Faith correctly towards Him by our own choice.

What is that correct requirement of Faith? A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

 

[Discern]

So Jesus personally surrenders our lives to Himself for us, and lives our life inpired by such surrender for us? No!

He provides Grace the unmerited favor, "and" the ability to faithe, but we have to fulfill the requirements of Faith correctly towards Him by our own choice.

What is that correct requirement of Faith? A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

The Father draws us to Jesus, who then raises us to spiritual life, resulting in a new creation. And the object of our faith is Him, not in our act of believing

 

[Judges1318]

I am sorry, but I do not agree that works are necessary, and here is why:

Faith without works is not the faith that justifies apart from works.
Even Luther said this.

 

[Judges1318]

2 Peter 2:22
Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

Pure supposition on your part, and your wrong again.

It's a reference to what you do here daily.

Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returns to his own vomit, So a fool repeats his folly.

Here's another one for you...

Proverbs 26:12
Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

And this proves once saved always saved how?

 

[Judges1318]

Where does it say in Galatians that they went back to theirs?

@BillG , dude, I posted the verses!

 

[VCO]

I sincerely and honesty have no idea what you are talking about.

That is sad, but if you have a WILLING HEART, I will try to teach you.

You really need to LET the Holy Spirit come into your Heart, and willing out of LOVE for HIM, receive/surrender to HIM as LORD of your LIFE, never to take back that Control Again. That is the LARGEST STUMBLING BLOCK in your path, because most people are not willing to give yourself totally to JESUS, so being in charge of your own life, becomes that STUMBLING BLOCK.

The Bible is not a Collection of individual Verses that you can USE any which way you want to.

In Fact, the verse Numbers did not Appear in the English Bible in Print until 1560, because People were having trouble finding the Corresponding verses to compare verse to verse.

I have been taught, that One Verse must NOT Contradict another verse on the same subject, unless you are comparing the O.T. LAW to N.T. Grace. AND EVEN THEN, Most of those Verses will Agree with one another, if you apply the Proper Interpretation. GOD DID NOT INSPIRE ANY CONTRADICTIONS. We humans make the mistakes all the time, that CREATES CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE. Any time you find a Contradiction, you have to search the Scriptures to find other verses on the SAME SUBJECT, knowing that GOD did not make the contradictions, WE did. When you compare Scripture to Scripture, you will soon find there is only ONE meaning that rings true in all of them. That is how I was taught to find the TRUE MEANING.

I know it is hard to get rid of Presuppositions, but it is a must, to find the TRUTH. Remember how I told you that in order to find the True Meaning to John 15:10, you had to look at John 14:15? That is the process of how I came to the conclusion, that you have to be SAVED FIRST, then after SALVATION, out of LOVE FOR HIM, you will strive to walk in obedience.