Not By Works

gb9 · Jan 9, 2020

I actually agree with this. Most who stop believing probably never believed to begin with. Or I should say, never got to the 'Spirit' part of 'water and the Spirit' in John 3:5.

Noted.

Honestly, I don't see anyone saying works earn salvation. I see people saying works accompany salvation just as Hebrews 6:9-10 points out, because that's what happens when you're saved. And if you don't have works, you are not saved and do not have faith in Christ.

And as far as Judaizers, I realized many years ago that they think Christians must keep the literal Feasts and Sabbaths, etc. for the same reason we believe Christians are not to lie, or steal, or commit adultery. We believe that we are to obey because that's what faith in Christ does, not obey in order to earn justification. And so do they. But conscience tells them the obedience of faith includes obeying the laws of Feasts and Sabbath. And Paul is very clear that I am not to take that away from them. It's a matter of conscience, not a matter of works salvation. I'm not acting in love if I cause them to violate their conscience. But I will, occasionally, share the reason why I do not keep the Feasts and Sabbaths. In fact, it's one of my favorite subjects to talk about.

don't see any? of either?

you ain't looking very hard...

RebuildJesussChurch · Jan 9, 2020

dcontroversal said:

Amen! And now grace and peace are ours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord!

His divine power has given us everything we need from life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them we may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 2 Peter 1:2-4

Praise God! We put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to our earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient. We used to walk in these ways, in the life we once lived. But now we must rid ourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from our lips. We do not lie to each other, since we have taken off our old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in the knowledge of its Creator. Col.3:5-10

As Peter and the other apostles testified before the Sanhedrin: We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him. For why did Jesus come? To destroy the devil's work - sin (1 John3:8b) and to baptize us with the Holy Spirit (Lk.3:16). For at the end of the age, the Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil (Mt.13:41).

Therefore, we have received the Great Commission: "All authority is heaven and earth has been give to Me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch. The eunuch's immediate response was "Look there is water. What prevents me from being baptized?" Was that your response to the Gospel, or did you hear a different one? The gentile household of Cornelius was born of water and the Spirit. The keys of the Kingdom. Come in!

JohnW34 · Jan 9, 2020

dcontroversal said:

A cleansed life through faith in Jesus and the cross saves.

1 John 2:3
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

Mark 2:5-7
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

John the baptist
Luke 3:3
preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

John the Baptist was sent to bring Israel to a point of bring cleansed, repentant and expectant.
Jesus brought the Kingdom, salvation, the stepping from cleansing into communion in the Holy Spirit.

The pharisees lived a sinful life in faith that was dead, fake, a display of hypocrisy.

Zechariah and Elizabeth parents of John where righteous, blameless
Luke 1:6
They were both righteous in the sight of God, following all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.

If you do not believe in cleansing, or living a cleansed life, the imperishable seed has not taken root.
Cleansing takes time, and is a walk of direction, knowing we will arrive with Christ.
Jesus promised that though it is a battle, it is easy, achievable, but only with faith.

Matt 11:28-30
Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light

Slaves to sin will shout lies, impossible, hypocrisy, dreamers paradise, meaningless drivel.

But all this testifies to is their own personal slavery projected on to everyone else, unbelief in action, a religious seed not of God.

Jude 1:4
They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

JohnW34 · Jan 9, 2020

gb9 said:

Can you be saved if you continue to murder, lie and are sexually immoral but have faith?
How can God be part of evil and its behaviour?
How can the Holy Spirit be defiled constantly yet this be called the Kingdom and freedom from sin?

If someone hates their brother, they do not know God. Sounds like we must be like the Kingdom to be in the Kingdom.

1 Cor 6:9-10
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So we have a tension. Aspiration of a walk, yet conflict and struggle to achieve it.
But to say God intends failure and defeat is unbelief, the way of the world, we all want to be nice but it is my ...... that stops me.

gb9 · Jan 9, 2020

JohnW34 said:

we are saved by belief and faith in Christ alone. good works are proper behavior follow after salvation. they neither prove nor maintain salvation.

and, as usual, you legalists pull out extreme examples to try to discredit salvation by faith alone.

i have a suggestion- why don't you join chris1975 on a sin study, find out what sin really is, then get back to me.

unless you know what sin really is, then you are in no position to speak about it.

JohnW34 · Jan 9, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

col 2. A form of faith, col 2:23 "but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

col 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

col 3:12-15
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.

Our faith is also our walk. Do you know the walk of faith?

We have the power to walk this walk because col 3:1 "you have been raised with Christ"

Chester · Jan 9, 2020

dcontroversal said:

Indeed, faith is very much involved in the process of justification - it is a vital part of the equation . . . But is that all that there is?

Paul says in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. And to leave Jesus and the cross and the resurrection out of the equation of salvation also seems incomplete.

That is why I do not say that we are saved by faith alone. Salvation is a complete package and is a free gift given to us by our Redeemer that brings joy, forgiveness, victory over sin today, and heaven in the end! Hallelujah!

eternally-gratefull · Jan 9, 2020

JohnW34 said:

Colossians 2:11–12 (NKJV): In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Please keep in context the bolded areas are what we were discussing. Can you tell me if these are water baptism or spirit baptism since whatever baptism it is is how we are cleansed and as Paul said

Colossians 2:13–14 (NKJV): And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

meaning it is how we are saved, redeemed, justified etc etc...

JohnW34 · Jan 9, 2020

gb9 said:

gb9 - We will be judged by the law that gives freedom

James 2:10-12
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom

You hold that you are not under any law, ie lawless.
Arguing taking one sin that is obvious as the example of sinning, is being a legalist, defies your own logic of what sinfulness is.
We are forgiven and cleansed in Christ. You appear to not believe this and would rather stay in sin, being a slave to it, while decrying everyone else are being in the same position.

I cannot help you, because it takes faith, a gift from God to see beyond this.

JohnW34 · Jan 9, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

This is not spirit baptism, because the Holy Spirit stays in us, where as we arise out of the water, and out of the grave, and out of our sins. But maybe for you, you do not arise out of your sins?

Our cleansing is through the blood that washes us clean.

Heb 10:22-24
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.

Rev 7:15
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Judges1318 · Jan 9, 2020

gb9 said:

In all my years in on line forums I only know of one person who actually said their works earn their salvation.

And if a person doesn't come right out and say it and we are forced to pass judgment and conclude that's what they are really doing in their heart, well, I think that's wrong. I hate when people do that to me and conclude that just because I don't agree with once saved always saved doctrine it means I'm not saved, or I'm afraid of losing my salvation, or I'm working to earn it, etc. So I don't do it to others. That is the true definition of judging. I don't like it, and I don't do it to others. Until they say their works earn their salvation I'm not just going to assume unfairly that's what they are doing.

Melach · Jan 9, 2020

Chris1975 said:

yes no rapture debate here. just asking. and i my suspicision was right. there are two kinds of pre-tribbers. the OSAS dispensational kind and the partial rapture charismatic kind.

mailmandan · Jan 9, 2020

JohnW34 said:

Are you saying that we do not rise out of our sins until we are water baptized? This happens only during water baptism? Also, I'm still waiting for you to answer my question from post #121,096.

mailmandan - Do you use Acts 2:38 to teach that water baptism is the means by which we receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit? If so, how then do you harmonize that with (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18)?

Amen! It's the blood of Christ that washes away our sins and not H20.

Hebrews 10:22 in the NASB reads - let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. *Notice the order. It is the sprinkling (with the Blood of Christ- Hebrews 9:14; I Peter 1:2) which touches the heart. The washing of pure water affects the body. Paul was careful to distinguish between an outward circumcision, which was of the flesh (Romans 2:28-29) and an inward circumcision, which was of the heart. The true child of Abraham (and therefore the true Christian) has the inward circumcision of the heart, not only the outward, which is accomplished by the "sprinkling of the blood of Christ" (I Peter 1:2), not by a washing in water in the ordinance of water baptism. Even Peter said - "not the removal of the dirt from the flesh" but the answer of a good conscience toward God. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21).

The writer of Hebrews shows us that no outward ceremony affects the heart (Hebrews 9:13). He would not, and does not contradict himself here by teaching that the washing of the body in water accomplishes an inward cleansing. The former is inward and spiritual, "of the heart" (Romans 2:28-29), and the latter is outward and physical, or "of the flesh" (Romans 2:28-29). The washing of the body in pure water does not present baptism as the means of the cleansing or purifying of the heart. The sprinkling with the Blood of Christ is, and washing our bodies with water is expressly distinguished from sprinkling with the Blood of Christ. Since water baptism is not the means of purifying the heart from sin, it is not the means of regeneration and is not the cause of salvation.

JohnW34 · Jan 9, 2020

mailmandan said:

Water baptism is the celebration of repentance and faith in Christ.
When John was preaching it is spoken that his baptism did bring forgiveness of sins.
This makes sense of Jesus bringing the Holy Spirit, the Kingdom to repentant believers.

The sacrifices in the temple are a shadow of the cross and its cleansing, so equally is baptism.
Baptism is like marriage, a declaration of commitment and giving of ones life to another in a ceremony, though this has taken place internally sometime beforehand. To deny the public declaration and its value, devalues and brings into question its reality.

So equally Paul says it like this

Rom 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

mailmandan · Jan 9, 2020

Judges1318 said:

Very few people who teach salvation by faith + works would come right out and say that "works earn their salvation." I was once in a conversation with someone who attends the church of Christ who claimed he did not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, contradicted himself by making this statement - "It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." Without him even realizing it, he is teaching that works help earn our salvation, even if it's only in part. Now I'm not saying you are doing the same thing, but was just making the point that many works-salvationists don't even realize they are works-salvationists. I have heard all kinds of sugar coated double talk in the past from works-salvationists who set out to justify "their version" of salvation by faith + works by trying to pass it off as salvation through faith, not works.

mailmandan · Jan 9, 2020

JohnW34 said:

Luke 3:3 - And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Now was this baptism for "in order to obtain" the remission of sins or for "in regards to/on the basis of" forgiveness of sins received upon repentance?

Also, in Matthew 3:11, we read - ..I baptize you with water for repentance.. Now was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance or for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance?

Being water baptized "in order to obtain" repentance makes no sense whatsoever and places the cart before the horse. Believers are water baptized AFTER they repent and not before.

Chris1975 · Jan 9, 2020

mailmandan said:

Very few people who teach salvation by faith + works would come right out and say that "works earn their salvation." I was once in a conversation with someone who attends the church of Christ who claimed he did not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, contradicted himself by making this statement - "It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." Without him even realizing it, he is teaching that works help earn our salvation, even if it's only in part. Now I'm not saying you are doing the same thing, but was just making the point that many works-salvationists don't even realize they are works-salvationists. I have heard all kinds of sugar coated double talk in the past from works-salvationists who set out to justify "their version" of salvation by faith + works by trying to pass it off as salvation through faith, not works.

Hebrews 5
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

I just love the Word. Slices and dices up comments like this. Super sharp sword.

mailmandan · Jan 9, 2020

Chris1975 said:

Actually, the Word does not slice and dice up my comment and I'm surprised to see that what I shared in my comment seemed to go right over your head. I've heard many works-salvationists use Hebrews 5:9 to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and SDA's. So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?

Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works (Matthew 7:21-23). *So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

EleventhHour · Jan 9, 2020

Judges1318 said:

Once again - if a person is not eternally saved/secure at the moment of the birth from above then the only other option is some required addition to salvation that the person must do.

JohnW34 · Jan 9, 2020

mailmandan said:

Good question.

This was repentance and cleansing separate from Jesus. The forgiving of sins, before the cross happened. And why did God anoint John for this ministry? A unique human, from birth filled with the Holy Spirit.

Israel were being prepared in their hearts to recognise the messiah, cleansed and made clean, ready to hear the words of the Kingdom.
Matt 3:2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
Matt 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

Rm 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

To see Jesus, to hear Jesus fully, to walk in His ways, we need to be cleansed, and then we can begin.

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