Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

That’s why I sometimes hate responding to people.they take things so personally and can not just say ok, I think I see what you mean. I know your not trying to attack me, you just disagree with me on an issue and I will try to see your point, even if I disagree...

obeying the ten commands is a CONDITION many preach must be followed to be saved - WORKS

Being morally upright and doing all these works are CONDITIONS people claim one must do to be saved - WORKS

Judges/ralph and a few others believe FAITH is a CONDITION that must be done of our own power to earn salvation, if that faith is lost then salvation is lost. - WORKS

God does not save us on CONDITIONS. He saves us because we are in a CONDITION of being lost, sinners with no hope. Bankrupt souls with no place to go, and through HIS work and HIS teaching, we come to the point we look up and say yes when he offers us his grace gift,

granted unless we have faith we will never come to that point, and will die in unbelief. But he SAVES us fro the CONDITION of unrighteousness and he MAKES us into a conditions of RIGHTEOUS

 

[lightbearer]

That’s why I sometimes hate responding to people.they take things so personally and can not just say ok, I think I see what you mean. I know your not trying to attack me, you just disagree with me on an issue and I will try to see your point, even if I disagree...

obeying the ten commands is a CONDITION many preach must be followed to be saved - WORKS

Being morally upright and doing all these works are CONDITIONS people claim one must do to be saved - WORKS

Judges/ralph and a few others believe FAITH is a CONDITION that must be done of our own power to earn salvation, if that faith is lost then salvation is lost. - WORKS

God does not save us on CONDITIONS. He saves us because we are in a CONDITION of being lost, sinners with no hope. Bankrupt souls with no place to go, and through HIS work and HIS teaching, we come to the point we look up and say yes when he offers us his grace gift,

granted unless we have faith we will never come to that point, and will die in unbelief. But he SAVES us fro the CONDITION of unrighteousness and he MAKES us into a conditions of RIGHTEOUS

It is a Gift.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:8-10 KJV)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is a Gift.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:8-10 KJV)

Yet you do not believe it is a gift, you believe at best is is a down payment for our works. And if we do not hold up our end of them argon, God takes that gift back

you teach conditional salvation

you say it is, then you take that gift, and demand people work to keep it.

 

[mailmandan]

Ephesians 2:8-9 (AMP) - For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].

I believe that faith is a gift in the "sense" that without God's remarkable compassion by His grace drawing us to Christ, none of us would come to place our faith in Christ for salvation and be saved, yet ultimately, I see salvation as the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8.

 

[lightbearer]

Yet you do not believe it is a gift, you believe at best is is a down payment for our works. And if we do not hold up our end of them argon, God takes that gift back

.

It is God that works in us both to will and do His Good pleasure.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is God that works in us both to will and do His Good pleasure.

yep

we work BECAUSE we are saved. NOT to earn or keep salvation as you preach.

sorry dude, I can not agree with your gospel.

 

[Judges1318]

Of course there are exhortations in the Bible to continue in the faith, as there are imposters with a spurious faith.

Why would you tell someone with fake faith to continue in that faith?

 

[Rosemaryx]

Why would you tell someone with fake faith to continue in that faith?

Can you please explain why you continue to ignore the question , are you Ralph ?
Can you at least address it...
Thank you in advance...

 

[Judges1318]

Do you believe that faith without works is dead? If the 2nd and 3rd soil represents saved people, then where is the fruit?

In the end, fruitless soil will be burned:

"8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." - Hebrews 6:8

The 2nd and 3rd types of soil represent immature believers. They believe (retain the word) but bear no fruit. Though they probably have works. The 2nd type of soil retains the word, until it stops believing. (Yes, I know, in osas 'believing' doesn't really mean believing in Luke 8:13) The 3rd type of soil retains the word, but does not mature.

 

[mailmandan]

Why would you tell someone with fake faith to continue in that faith?

Continuing in the faith and failing to continue in the faith separates the sheep from the goats. The exhortation in the letter is for all the Hebrews, yet only genuine believers continue. Why would the apostle Paul tell the Corinthians to - "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?" (2 Corinthians 13:5) This letter is written to "the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia." (vs. 1) Does that mean everyone in this group of professing believers must be a genuine believer? NO. Hence, the test yourself.

 

[mailmandan]

In the end, fruitless soil will be burned:

"8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." - Hebrews 6:8

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad).

The 2nd and 3rd types of soil represent immature believers. They believe (retain the word) but bear no fruit. Though they probably have works. The 2nd type of soil retains the word, until it stops believing. (Yes, I know, in osas 'believing' doesn't really mean believing in Luke 8:13) The 3rd type of soil retains the word, but does not mature.

No root, no fruit, no salvation, yet faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. Faith without works is dead, yet you say it's alive regardless. The word being choked out and does not bear fruit still equals saved to you.

Unlike saving belief, shallow temporary belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit (Matthew 13:5-6; Luke 8:6; 13) represent saving belief? It's interesting to see how people who are quick to say "faith without works is dead" in James chapter 2 suddenly disregard that in this parable. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe (pisteuo) "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe "pisteuo" on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" to some level but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their "belief" was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. YOU CALL THAT SAVED?

We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil. Until you can grasp this, you will just continue to beat your drum to NOSAS.

 

[Judges1318]

If someone does not continue to believe, then they are not true believers. In John 8:31, Jesus stated - “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Unlike people who set out to be disciples of Christ, then later become offended by His words, turn and walk with Him no more. With such people, Jesus knew from the beginning that they did not truly believe. (John 6:60-66)

And this is supposed to be the doctrine of security?
According to your interpretation, you can't know if you are 'truly' a disciple until you see if you continue in His word. That means in this life you can never really know if you are truly saved. In my doctrine you can have the assurance in this life that you are truly saved. Because that is known by the way the Bible says you know that, not the way osas says you know that. Maturing as a believer in works and fruit is when you gain assurance of your salvation. As I've been saying all along, mature believers--4th type of soil believers--are the ones who have security, and assurance, of salvation.

 

[Judges1318]

The Galatians were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers, but was there any evidence that seeking to be justified by the law was their final answer? Paul had confidence in them to adopt no other view [contrary to his on the matter]; but the one who is disturbing them, whoever he is, will have to bear the penalty.

Hmm.....you just got done saying in this post this kind of soil is unsaved soil.

 

[mailmandan]

And this is supposed to be the doctrine of security? According to your interpretation, you can't know if you are 'truly' a disciple until you see if you continue in His word.

Genuine believers know they have eternal life (1 John 5:13) prior to continuing in His word. Continuing in His word gives further evidence that one is truly a disciple of Jesus. (John 8:31) Those who go out from us were never of us and if they were of us then they would have continued. (1 John 2:19)

That means in this life you can never really know if you are truly saved.

Sure you can. Those who believe in the name of the Son of God may know they have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

In my doctrine you can have the assurance in this life that you are truly saved. Because that is known by the way the Bible says you know that, not the way osas says you know that.

NOSAS makes Jesus our "initial" Savior, then WE do the rest and keep ourselves saved through self preservation. I see no assurance of salvation in that.

Maturing as a believer in works and fruit is when you gain assurance of your salvation. As I've been saying all along, mature believers--4th type of soil believers--are the ones who have security, and assurance, of salvation.

The parable of the soils is not comparing mature believers who have security and assurance of salvation with immature believers who have no security and assurance of salvation. It's comparing different types of soil upon which the seed (word) is received and only the 4th soil is referred to as "good ground," produces fruit and perseveres. The other soils represents people who are not properly prepared in heart.

 

[Judges1318]

In Corinthians, those who fail to hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached demonstrated that they believed in vain and to "believe in vain" is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

Dan, I'm disappointed in you.
I thought you knew that the 'unless you believed in vain' was referring to if Christ had not really been raised from the dead. That would make their believing vain. It's right there in the passage:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (that Christ is not really raised from the dead)." - 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 parenthesis by me, explanation below)

"13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:13-14

16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished." - 1 Corinthians 15:16-18

Please don't ask us to ignore the context of a passage again in favor of your interpretation.

Even if vs. 2 did mean 'if you didn't really believe in the first place', how does that change the fact that Paul says you are presently saved if you are presently holding fast the word preached?

 

[mailmandan]

Hmm.....you just got done saying in this post this kind of soil is unsaved soil.

How did you jump from the parable of the soils in Matthew, Mark and Luke to the Galatians? Temporarily getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers does not mean unsaved soil.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan, I'm disappointed in you.

Psychological games.

I thought you knew that the 'unless you believed in vain' was referring to if Christ had not really been raised from the dead. That would make their believing vain. It's right there in the passage:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (that Christ is not really raised from the dead)." - 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 parenthesis by me, explanation below)

"13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:13-14

16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished." - 1 Corinthians 15:16-18

If Christ has not risen, then our faith would be in vain (vs. 14) but of course, that is not the case because Christ has risen from the dead.

Please don't ask us to ignore the context of a passage again in favor of your interpretation.

You have previously used 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 to teach that some believers will not hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached and lose their salvation, but now you are saying "believed in vain" in verse 4 is connected with "Christ has not risen" in verse 14? So those who believe the gospel are saved, unless Christ has not risen? That's how you now interpret 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

Even if vs. 2 did mean 'if you didn't really believe in the first place', how does that change the fact that Paul says you are presently saved if you are presently holding fast the word preached?

Paul does not want to give false assurance to those who have believed in vain -- without cause or without effect, to no purpose. Genuine believers hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached and are saved. Those who don't hold fast demonstrate that their belief was never firmly rooted and established.

 

[Judges1318]

If truly saved, born again Christians who are God's elect could lose their salvation, then God's promise of preserving His saints forever and Jesus' sheep receiving eternal life/never perishing or being snatched from His hand and whom He justified, He also glorified (and Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty) along with believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession would all be unreliable promises.

Actually, if your understanding of 'election' and 'perseverance' was accurate there would be zero passages in which the uncertainty of the perseverance of the believer is expressed. All God's promises are conditional on present tense believing. When present tense believing stops, and God turns you over to that unbelief, the promises end for you.

 

[Judges1318]

How did you jump from the parable of the soils in Matthew, Mark and Luke to the Galatians? Temporarily getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers does not mean unsaved soil.

You made that jump by insisting that only true believers persevere.
The saved Galatians must not have been true disciples (though Paul says they were) because they did not "continue in My word".

 

[Judges1318]

What is hyper grace in your own words?

That is a forbidden topic around here: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-and-preachers-of-the-doctrine-on-cc.143507/

You'll have to Google perseverance of the saints wiki, then open that page and scroll down to the Hyper Grace section.

Is this how you view the doctrine of eternal security?

Absolutely not!
Although I'm not Calvinist, I'm with them on this part: You must continue to believe to the very end to be saved in the very end.