Not By Works

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Mar 14, 2011
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Justification in Christ is secured the moment you believe in Christ. And you remain justified in God's sight as long as you are believing.
As our Biblical example of this, Paul told the Galatians that they lose the effect of Christ in justification by going back to the law for justification. This is how he literally said it to them:

"2 if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing"

"3 I testify again to every man circumcised...4 ye were freed from the Christ,

"ye who in law are declared righteous; from the grace ye fell away"

Galatians 5:2-4 Young's Literal Translation

Three times he said it:
If you get circumcised Christ will be of no value to you.

To every circumcised man, you have been set free from Christ.
You who are justified by law, you have fallen away from grace.

We are all free to think we are able, or not able, to fall away from faith in Christ for justification. Each of us has the freedom to think what we want about that. But what is clear, if you do, you will lose justification in Christ. But, as evidenced by the Galatians, God may give you space to reconsider before He turns you over permanently to your rejection of Christ. At which time you can't come back even if you wanted to. He doesn't allow it because that puts Christ to open shame.
Romans 4 in context shows this is error
abraham believed and it was accredited as righteousnes

End of story


if Abraham was found by works he has something to boast Abraham showed many acts where he lost faith yet his salvation was never in question. He was saved the moment he believed
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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Romans 4 in context shows this is error
abraham believed and it was accredited as righteousnes
Yep.
Everybody who believes is justified when they believe.
This is not what's in question.
At least not with me.

He was saved the moment he believed
Yep.
That's how it works.
This is not the issue in question.

if Abraham was found by works he has something to boast
Yep.
We agree that Abraham was not made righteous (justified) by what he did.
That's not where the disagreement lies.
He was made righteous by what he believed. Period.

Abraham showed many acts where he lost faith yet his salvation was never in question.
The Bible says Abraham never lost faith in the promises:

"19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” - Romans 4:19-22

He got scared for himself. He even tried to fulfill the promise of a son himself, but he never, ever lost faith in the promises made to him. In fact, Paul said his faith strengthened.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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537
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Paul told the Galatians that they lose the effect of Christ in justification by going back to the law for justification. This is how he literally said it to them:

"2 if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing"

"3 I testify again to every man circumcised...4 ye were freed from the Christ,

"ye who in law are declared righteous; from the grace ye fell away"

Galatians 5:2-4 Young's Literal Translation

Three times he said it:
If you get circumcised Christ will be of no value to you.

To every circumcised man, you have been set free from Christ.
You who are justified by law, you have fallen away from grace.
THIS is what needs to be addressed.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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THIS is what needs to be addressed.
Paul isn't addressing an individual. He is addressing the church where there are people who are saved and he is confident in, and people who heard the truth but aren't saved, trusting in the law and how well they walk in it to be justified. There will also be sapplings who may be stumbling over this issue as well as un-saved folk functioning as wolves within the church.



These verses you post in no way suggest one who is saved already, can ever be unsaved. It is about people who heard the truth within the church and set it aside to go back to the law for justification, it is also about encouragement and great information, a massive difference in belief between those under grace and those who have heard of grace but made it of no effect by adding leaven and ruining the whole gospel.


4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,704
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Yep.
Everybody who believes is justified when they believe.
This is not what's in question.
At least not with me.


Yep.
That's how it works.
This is not the issue in question.


Yep.
We agree that Abraham was not made righteous (justified) by what he did.
That's not where the disagreement lies.
He was made righteous by what he believed. Period.


The Bible says Abraham never lost faith in the promises:

"19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” - Romans 4:19-22

He got scared for himself. He even tried to fulfill the promise of a son himself, but he never, ever lost faith in the promises made to him. In fact, Paul said his faith strengthened.
you can spin it all you want

Abraham was declaired righteous, If it could be lost, he was not declaired righteous.

If abraham was required to remain in faith. He earned his salvation.

Take your self righteous gospel elswhere my friend. It is not welcome here!
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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BL could you please do me a favor and remove me from the cc site? I'm sure there is a way to do it myself, just not to computer savvy .

Thanks[/QUOTE]

we have had our major differences, but I will be praying for you and your wife..

good luck and God bless you both( and your children, if you have any).
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
2,140
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If abraham was required to remain in faith. He earned his salvation.

Take your self righteous gospel elswhere my friend. It is not welcome here!
Please provide chapter and verse where it says present ongoing believing in Christ is part of the self righteous works gospel.
I see where it says it is not and is clearly contrasted with the works gospel:

"5and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned — to righteousness" - Romans 4:5 YLT

Perhaps what you really should be saying is you don't believe that a believer can stop believing. That's fine if you want to believe that about yourself but please do not tell me or any other believer that they will definitely keep believing. You don't know that. And besides, the Bible itself exhorts believers to not give up and to keep believing. Ultimately, that has to settled between the believer himself and God.

We're very protected and even spoiled in our Western society and very few of us have had our heads on the chopping block and forced to choose between keep believing and die, or renounce Christ and live. Strong believers of the 4th type of soil in the Parable of the Sower are going to fare better if/when those times come to Western society. Weak believers, probably not so well.
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,704
12,815
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Please provide chapter and verse where it says present ongoing believing in Christ is part of the self righteous works gospel.
I see where it says it is not and is clearly contrasted with the works gospel:

"5and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned — to righteousness" - Romans 4:5 YLT

Perhaps what you really should be saying is you don't believe that a believer can stop believing. That's fine if you want to believe that about yourself but please do not tell me or any other believer that they will definitely keep believing. You don't know that. And besides, the Bible itself exhorts believers to not give up and to keep believing. Ultimately, that has to settled between the believer himself and God.

We're very protected and even spoiled in our Western society and very few of us have had our heads on the chopping block and forced to choose between keep believing and die, or renounce Christ and live. Strong believers of the 4th type of soil in the Parable of the Sower are going to fare better if/when those times come to Western society. Weak believers, probably not so well.
Good day sir. You have been shown so many times now I lost count. It’s not up to me to show you how self righteous you make yourself to be only God can do this
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
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Please provide chapter and verse where it says present ongoing believing in Christ is part of the self righteous works gospel.
I see where it says it is not and is clearly contrasted with the works gospel:

"5and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned — to righteousness" - Romans 4:5 YLT

Perhaps what you really should be saying is you don't believe that a believer can stop believing. That's fine if you want to believe that about yourself but please do not tell me or any other believer that they will definitely keep believing. You don't know that. And besides, the Bible itself exhorts believers to not give up and to keep believing. Ultimately, that has to settled between the believer himself and God.

We're very protected and even spoiled in our Western society and very few of us have had our heads on the chopping block and forced to choose between keep believing and die, or renounce Christ and live. Strong believers of the 4th type of soil in the Parable of the Sower are going to fare better if/when those times come to Western society. Weak believers, probably not so well.
yes... We all see how strong your faith is. It's only every chance you have that you take to brag about.... errrr... testify to us about it.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
4,475
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BL could you please do me a favor and remove me from the cc site? I'm sure there is a way to do it myself, just not to computer savvy .

Thanks[/QUOTE]

You need to contact @Oncefallen to be removed.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,270
2,052
113
We're very protected and even spoiled in our Western society and very few of us have had our heads on the chopping block and forced to choose between keep believing and die, or renounce Christ and live. Strong believers of the 4th type of soil in the Parable of the Sower are going to fare better if/when those times come to Western society. Weak believers, probably not so well.

Peter denied Christ, he still believed.

God not only saved His children, but He holds on to them.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
2,140
537
113
yes... We all see how strong your faith is. It's only every chance you have that you take to brag about.... errrr... testify to us about it.
Nobody believes God out of their own resources. That's why there is no boast in believing.

A believer can no more boast of having believed than a field can boast of having grown a plant that won't grow there on it's own unless nurtured by a husbandman.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
4,475
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Please provide chapter and verse where it says present ongoing believing in Christ is part of the self righteous works gospel.
I see where it says it is not and is clearly contrasted with the works gospel:

"5and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned — to righteousness" - Romans 4:5 YLT

Perhaps what you really should be saying is you don't believe that a believer can stop believing. That's fine if you want to believe that about yourself but please do not tell me or any other believer that they will definitely keep believing. You don't know that. And besides, the Bible itself exhorts believers to not give up and to keep believing. Ultimately, that has to settled between the believer himself and God.

We're very protected and even spoiled in our Western society and very few of us have had our heads on the chopping block and forced to choose between keep believing and die, or renounce Christ and live. Strong believers of the 4th type of soil in the Parable of the Sower are going to fare better if/when those times come to Western society. Weak believers, probably not so well.
Culture, circumstances and situations does not change salvation, nor our strength and courage.

It is Christ Jesus who is our supply.

What I have noticed over and over again is how you take your false dogma first and then make it fit scripture....and it does not fit at all.

And what really bothers me is how you spread anxiety and fear regarding salvation which is completely contrary to the message of Good News!

You will be held accountable for that one day!!
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
2,140
537
113
Peter denied Christ, he still believed.
That's right. As serious as his infraction was, he never said Jesus was not the Christ. He was scared, not unbelieving.

God not only saved His children, but He holds on to them.
Of course He does.
That's why you should stay in the household of Jesus and keep believing.
That's where the protection is.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
2,140
537
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Good day sir. You have been shown so many times now I lost count. It’s not up to me to show you how self righteous you make yourself to be only God can do this
All you have to do is show me where it says present, continuous believing is a work of the works gospel that can not save.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Peter denied Christ, he still believed.

God not only saved His children, but He holds on to them.
Amen brother...

Philippians 1:6
6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

John 6:37-39
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

It sure is God who KEEPS us...
...xox...