Not By Works

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Apr 3, 2019
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The problem is you're overlaying the idea with a very Calvinist flavor. You're reading more into the phrase "dead in sins" than is necessary, the second death which is spiritual death occurs after the judgment.
You are all over the place - Paul stated that he died - that would be spiritual death

(Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.)

(Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I make no excuses for my sins, but I'll answer you with Scripture.

9 He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.
20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.
24 Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.
25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;
26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.
28 For thou wilt light my candle: the Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.
Yawn

the wage of sin is death

if we keep The Whole law yet fail in one point, we are cursed

you keep looking at sin as it is overt actions, while yes, murder and adultry are sins, they are the result of a deeper sin

you show you do not have a grasp what true sin is. And that is most likely why you think you are righteous
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Yawn

the wage of sin is death

if we keep The Whole law yet fail in one point, we are cursed

you keep looking at sin as it is overt actions, while yes, murder and adultry are sins, they are the result of a deeper sin

you show you do not have a grasp what true sin is. And that is most likely why you think you are righteous
Actually I'm not looking at sin as overt actions, I'm looking at sin as something without substance yet with real power. I'm looking at sin as something that infects, corrupts, and destroys. Not simply an abstract breaking of a law, not simply as disobedience, but as a power unto itself. The opposite of God's creative force, introduced into the world through Adam's disobedience. My righteousness doesn't come by the law. I know I am righteous because God has declared me righteous. He has revealed to me His grace that I may walk in it. The unrighteous creature that hated God died the day that the I accepted the gospel and I became a new creation.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
He has revealed to me His grace that I may walk in it.
Yes but this is not salvation.

Salvation is being justified, being declared righteous by God.

Romans 5:1 “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Justification comes by grace and through faith apart from any and all works.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Yes but this is not salvation.

Salvation is being justified, being declared righteous by God.

Romans 5:1 “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Justification comes by grace and through faith apart from any and all works.
And if God declares us righteous, are we not righteous? Do you not believe God's declaration?
 
Apr 2, 2020
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I have confidence that if I actually apprehended grace that I am righteous. However, I cannot help but look at the disconnect between my desires and my behavior and recognize that if God judges me unrighteous He is just in His judgment. My obedience, in either case, is an obligation because He is worthy of being obeyed.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I have confidence that if I actually apprehended grace that I am righteous. However, I cannot help but look at the disconnect between my desires and my behavior and recognize that if God judges me unrighteous He is just in His judgment. My obedience, in either case, is an obligation because He is worthy of being obeyed.
Sadly then you have missed the Good News.
Why.... because once justified one cannot be judged unrighteous or unjustified.

That works are needed to maintain justification or that one can be found guilty again is illogical ..... no one is declared half innocent.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Sadly then you have missed the Good News.
Why.... because once justified one cannot be judged unrighteous or unjustified.

That works are needed to maintain justification or that one can be found guilty again is illogical ..... no one is declared half innocent.
I don't know if I've missed it or not. As I said, I know from my perspective it certainly seems like I am saved but the question is whether I actually believe it in my heart. I know that my heart deceives me at times, and I know that though I recognize the truth of Jesus' death burial and resurrection mentally I do not know whether I truly believe it. There are moments where it is absolutely, 100% certain and others where I question whether such miracles can occur. God has moved mountains at the sound of my voice, and yet still I question whether He is capable of raising a man from the dead. In the end, God will be glorified and I will face a final judgment. Until that day I have hope and confidence, but it is not absolute.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I don't know if I've missed it or not. As I said, I know from my perspective it certainly seems like I am saved but the question is whether I actually believe it in my heart. I know that my heart deceives me at times, and I know that though I recognize the truth of Jesus' death burial and resurrection mentally I do not know whether I truly believe it. There are moments where it is absolutely, 100% certain and others where I question whether such miracles can occur. God has moved mountains at the sound of my voice, and yet still I question whether He is capable of raising a man from the dead. In the end, God will be glorified and I will face a final judgment. Until that day I have hope and confidence, but it is not absolute.
You can know now and not just be hoping.

If you are hoping and not sure then you are not fully persuaded yet.

Jesus gives salvation to those who trust, believe, have faith (heart and mind) in Him for it...it is a gift .... there is no working for it.

When will you be ready to stop working because it is only when you do that you will be ready to receive.

Think on it... it is scriptural.
 

DJ3

Member
Jun 22, 2019
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I don't know if I've missed it or not. As I said, I know from my perspective it certainly seems like I am saved but the question is whether I actually believe it in my heart. I know that my heart deceives me at times, and I know that though I recognize the truth of Jesus' death burial and resurrection mentally I do not know whether I truly believe it. There are moments where it is absolutely, 100% certain and others where I question whether such miracles can occur. God has moved mountains at the sound of my voice, and yet still I question whether He is capable of raising a man from the dead. In the end, God will be glorified and I will face a final judgment. Until that day I have hope and confidence, but it is not absolute.
I don't know if I've missed it or not. As I said, I know from my perspective it certainly seems like I am saved but the question is whether I actually believe it in my heart. I know that my heart deceives me at times, and I know that though I recognize the truth of Jesus' death burial and resurrection mentally I do not know whether I truly believe it. There are moments where it is absolutely, 100% certain and others where I question whether such miracles can occur. God has moved mountains at the sound of my voice, and yet still I question whether He is capable of raising a man from the dead. In the end, God will be glorified and I will face a final judgment. Until that day I have hope and confidence, but it is not absolute.
You are much more honest and clear minded about this issue then the OSAS followers here. You have sincerely read the scriptures and have simply acknowledged what is written. Do not be afraid to speak the truth. Most OSAS simply want the fear of falling short before the Judgement Seat to go away, willing to accept the weakest of notions in order to sleep better at night. The truth be damned.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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You can know now and not just be hoping.

If you are hoping and not sure then you are not fully persuaded yet.

Jesus gives salvation to those who trust, believe, have faith (heart and mind) in Him for it...it is a gift .... there is no working for it.

When will you be ready to stop working because it is only when you do that you will be ready to receive.

Think on it... it is scriptural.
There's a lot more than simple persuasion. It is a gift, but it is given to His children. I am fully convinced that God will give it to those who believe the gospel. I just don't know if I am truly capable of such, and even if I were I'm not sure I could accept it. I have been guilty of great hubrus, thinking I was capable of a task greater than Jesus in that I at one point was determined to go to hell for someone that I loved. If in the end it's revealed I am one of His children, the rejoicing I do now in part will be made complete. If it's revealed that when I believed I had committed the unpardonable sin I truly had, God's justice will be revealed upon me. Still, I will obey. Because my obedience is not contingent on my salvation it is because He is the only voice that has truly proven itself worthy of listening to. The only one whose council has never led me wrong.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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You are much more honest and clear minded about this issue then the OSAS followers here. You have sincerely read the scriptures and have simply acknowledged what is written. Do not be afraid to speak the truth. Most OSAS simply want the fear of falling short before the Judgement Seat to go away, willing to accept the weakest of notions in order to sleep better at night. The truth be damned.

NOT IN THE LEAST, we wholeheartedly BELIEVE:



2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him [Long before you can do your first work, so Obedience is Part of your Agape Love, that you do after you are SAVED.], you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.


Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV)
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God,
by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
{There is a major OSAS VERSE!}
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
There's a lot more than simple persuasion. It is a gift, but it is given to His children. I am fully convinced that God will give it to those who believe the gospel. I just don't know if I am truly capable of such, and even if I were I'm not sure I could accept it. I have been guilty of great hubrus, thinking I was capable of a task greater than Jesus in that I at one point was determined to go to hell for someone that I loved. If in the end it's revealed I am one of His children, the rejoicing I do now in part will be made complete. If it's revealed that when I believed I had committed the unpardonable sin I truly had, God's justice will be revealed upon me. Still, I will obey. Because my obedience is not contingent on my salvation it is because He is the only voice that has truly proven itself worthy of listening to. The only one whose council has never led me wrong.
You are all over the place and making much more difficult than it is... the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand and believe.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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You can know now and not just be hoping.

If you are hoping and not sure then you are not fully persuaded yet.

Jesus gives salvation to those who trust, believe, have faith (heart and mind) in Him for it...it is a gift .... there is no working for it.

When will you be ready to stop working because it is only when you do that you will be ready to receive.

Think on it... it is scriptural.
Amen! Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Unlike the english word "hope," the New Testament word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

Definition: expectation, hope
Usage: hope, expectation, trust, confidence.

If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. (y)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Actually I'm not looking at sin as overt actions, I'm looking at sin as something without substance yet with real power. I'm looking at sin as something that infects, corrupts, and destroys. Not simply an abstract breaking of a law, not simply as disobedience, but as a power unto itself. The opposite of God's creative force, introduced into the world through Adam's disobedience. My righteousness doesn't come by the law. I know I am righteous because God has declared me righteous. He has revealed to me His grace that I may walk in it. The unrighteous creature that hated God died the day that the I accepted the gospel and I became a new creation.
you still do not understand sin.

Sin is ANYTHING done in the flesh. Any time you place your needs above the needs of others, or do anything for self. two people can do the exact same thing, one can be doing it in sin, the other can be doing it in love, hence as fruit of the spirit.

Your trying to take some religious interpretation of what sin is, and not seeing it for what it really is

Sin comes from the greek word Hamarte, which means to "fall short" in fact, romans 3: 23 says that all have sinned (literally fallen short) and fall short (greek hysterountai - litterally been left behind, or come up short) of Gods glory

Sin is not a force. the force which empowers sin is the flesh. It is the hole left in our souls after we were separated from God. God created us to fill that hole with his love, when Adam broke that relationship between God and mankind and alienated us from God (in adam ALL DIE) we were left to fill that hole ourselves. That is the power of sin, We use everythign we can in an attempt to fill that hole. Sex, Drugs, Food, False Gods, Power, Money, you name it, mankind has tried it. It is the power of the flesh.

This should lead us to Christ, as we realize something is missing, but we are to proud, we have to continue to try to fill that gap. If this does not work, we try that, if that does not work, we try something else. Until we see people who appear to have everything anyone would lever want (power. sex, money, fame, etc etc) commit suicide, because they realize, that is not enough, I still have that hole in my heart. Nothing works. why bother.

the power of the flesh can only be broken by the Love of God being poured into our hearts. Which can only be done through the cross. And he fills that hole and continues to fill it with overflowing. with total forgiveness as found on the redemptive sacrifice as the "lamb of God who took on the sin of the world. he who knew no sin, became sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness OF CHRIST in him.

Its not your righteousness, Your righteousness is as filthy bloody rags, Its Gods righteousness