Not By Works

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EleventhHour

Guest
I'm trying to be nice, but I've knocked down every single one of your arguments with grounded, verifiable, logical, Biblical materiel and yet you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the holes in your doctrine that I've exposed.
Your doctrine states that Christ Jesus does not save.... what bigger hole is there than that one?
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
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On January 1st I opened up Matthew 1 and joyfully began reading the NT. Today however begins my arduous task of reading Revelation.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Man is saved by faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. (James 2:14-18)
That's a doctrine that many teach, but how its understood could make it true or disasterous. One of my objections is justification not being by works of the law does not somehow become justification requires vicarious works of the law. If it means that our faith will lead us naturally to do works, yeah picture it as root/fruit. But many use the idea of faith as an excuse to live their lives any way they see fit. Works is the expression of faith, they are faith made manifest.

FAITH is the ROOT of SALVATION....faith, sir...

Why do you object?

Please review the VINE and the branches then....
In order for one to do the works sir....they would have to be in the VINE to begin with.

For apart from THE VINE, what can you do?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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When have I denied that it is through Christ that many are made righteous? He is the door, the author, and perfecter of the faith. What I deny is the unBiblical idea of vicarious guilt/punishment. After all:


“But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, 6 and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period— 7 if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 8 if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man, 9 if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord God.
10 “Then he may [g]have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother 11 (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor’s wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and commits abomination, 13 he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be [h]on his own head.
14 “Now behold, he [i]has a son who has observed all his father’s sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise. 15 He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife, 16 or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 17 he keeps his hand from [j]the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. 20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
Please go to the beginning of the chapter of Ezekiel 18...the whole reason GOD explains that every man will be found guilty of his own sin(s) was that the people were attributing the sins of the next generation (the sons) to their fathers...

Which was why GOD said, what is the meaning of this saying:

The fatherś have eaten sour grapes and the son´s teeth are set on edge
Please review it yourself...

And, had you gone on to Ezekiel 19, you would have seen that all are guilty...and thirsty and in need...
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Again, you're interpreting the whole thing through your reading of Romans. Romans is not a theological treatise and it wasn't until it began being treated as such that this false division between faith/works began. It's why Luther wanted to throw out James, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation. Grace means getting more than you deserve, but mercy is something that you can deserve based on not having done anything that requires retribution. Justice would not be just if a single penalty was given to all, but that was what sin created. It destroys without regard to morality, and the world shows it. But God is just, and the righteous find Him. The twisted gospel you preach comes from a twisted view of humanity and creates a twisted picture of justice.
I would like you to further explain what you are saying.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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You asked,Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Listen, please, and let me speak; You said,I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You.
Therefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.
(Job 42:3-6)
“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Bbrdrd,

I don´t understand your response to the above poster.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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What would you call "he took the penalty I deserved"? Penal substitution, as presented by protestants, calls to do exactly that. To glory in His sufferings rather than recognizing the injustice of it. The great exchange does exactly that, by placing the guilt of your sins onto Him so that you can be "deemed righteous". The point of the cross is to bring us to the point where we recognize that our answer to God's question to Job is yes and to be ashamed of it. Those who recognize this are set free because God shows that He truly is just.
The point of Job was that we should know to keep our mouths shut and not profess that we know anything.
Job was doing well at the beginning of his trials...it was when interference from his wife and so-called friends caused Job to open his mouth to GOD...

All mouths will be shut...no one will be able to bring to GOD any profession of anything...themselves, or their works (something his friends initially, in their ignorance, tried to get Job to do...no one needs to remind GOD of what he/she did...or the injustice of their sufferings...

Nothing will be said except one word....


GRACE
 
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You are all over the place and making much more difficult than it is... the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand and believe.
I'm well aware the gospel iis simple. God came and forgave our sins and for His righteousness was put to death. He was then vindicated by being judged and is the first of many. My issue isn't the gospel or lack of belief entirely. It's coming to accept that I haven't committed the unforgiveable sin. But regardless of my eternal position it is my duty to obey. Not for rewards or fear of punishment but because He is worthy of it.
 
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The point of Job was that we should know to keep our mouths shut and not profess that we know anything.
Job was doing well at the beginning of his trials...it was when interference from his wife and so-called friends caused Job to open his mouth to GOD...

All mouths will be shut...no one will be able to bring to GOD any profession of anything...themselves, or their works (something his friends initially, in their ignorance, tried to get Job to do...no one needs to remind GOD of what he/she did...or the injustice of their sufferings...

Nothing will be said except one word....


GRACE
That's not the point of Job at all. Job is to bring comfort to those who are suffering. It's a reminder that though we may not understand God has a plan. God is just and the innocent will be vindicated. Job is a book of hope.
 
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FAITH is the ROOT of SALVATION....faith, sir...

Why do you object?

Please review the VINE and the branches then....
In order for one to do the works sir....they would have to be in the VINE to begin with.

For apart from THE VINE, what can you do?
I don't object if the faith is actually in Christ. The issue of obedience to me is not a salvation issue. Whether we are saved or not it is our duty to obey. Regardless of what we get out of it, God is worthy of obedience.
 
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look at Saul, a murderer of Gods people. Who was saved and started the gentile church as paul, and ended up being used by God to pen most of the NT scripture..

no one is too far Gone.

God came to save sinners, not the righteous.
Yes, but Saul didn't spurn the Holy Spirit. While I don't know if I have, I did reject the gospel after I first understood it thinking that I would go to hell for someone I loved. I came to full knowledge and threw it all away. But that doesn't really matter, God will judge me how I am fit to be judged. If that's damnation so be it, I will obey. If it's salvation so be it, I will obey.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
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My issue isn't the gospel or lack of belief entirely. It's coming to accept that I haven't committed the unforgiveable sin.
The fact that you’re concerned about this is actually why you don’t need to be concerned about it. God knows your heart, and His grace is sufficient.
 
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The fact that you’re concerned about this is actually why you don’t need to be concerned about it. God knows your heart, and His grace is sufficient.
I'm actually not all that concerned about it. My conscience is seared and my path is set. My fate is in God's hands and nothing can change it. But He has tasked me with preaching obedience, not for salvation but because He is worthy.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I'm actually not all that concerned about it. My conscience is seared and my path is set. My fate is in God's hands and nothing can change it. But He has tasked me with preaching obedience, not for salvation but because He is worthy.
We are called to preach the Good News :)
 
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We are called to preach the Good News :)
Obedience is good news. He is worthy, His justice is perfect, and He will judge the wicked. If you're righteous, that's great news. It's heartbreaking, but it's still great news.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
That's not the point of Job at all. Job is to bring comfort to those who are suffering. It's a reminder that though we may not understand God has a plan. God is just and the innocent will be vindicated. Job is a book of hope.
Not sure about this ... however certainly Job is not about keeping our mouth shut.

Sad when people turn God's grace into something it is not.

As @Lightskin stated somewhere on this thread ... want to understand the Grace of God look at Jesus... Jesus is grace.

Did He look down from the cross and state "you really do not deserve this but I am doing it anyway"... No He did not.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Obedience is good news. He is worthy, His justice is perfect, and He will judge the wicked. If you're righteous, that's great news. It's heartbreaking, but it's still great news.
Obedience needs to come from a place of rest, liberty and love .. this is what pleases God.
Only a person assured of their salvation is in a place of rest.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
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I'm actually not all that concerned about it. My conscience is seared and my path is set. My fate is in God's hands and nothing can change it. But He has tasked me with preaching obedience, not for salvation but because He is worthy.
You sure have a strange way of saying you’re not concerned as per post 132,049. Perhaps it’s your use of the word ISSUE.