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Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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I am not continuing this further... I know how you twist people's words.
You asked for the post where he said that.
I showed it to you to read for yourself.
In it he plainly said Hebrews 10:29 is talking about a sanctified unbeliever.
No twisting by me required. :)
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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I'm winning the bet.
I do not have to continue, you conditional security falls apart and is NOT TRUTH, it completely falls apart on the words of Jesus.

That has made clear.

Jesus gives Eternal Life/Everlasting Life.
No one is un-birthed either physically or spiritually
 

Micaiah-imla

Well-known member
Feb 29, 2020
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Nope, only the one praying needs faith, the faith of the elders. Nothing in James 5 mentions the faith of the sick.
Acts 14:8-10
[8] And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: [9] The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, [10] Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

Paul’s effect on healing this man depended on the faith of that man.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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I do not have to continue, you conditional security falls apart and is NOT TRUTH, it completely falls apart on the words of Jesus.
Osas falls flat on it's butt on the words of Hebrews 10.
It is the definitive non-osas passage.

Jesus gives Eternal Life/Everlasting Life.
Yes, he does give eternal life/everlasting life.
That's why you should continue to believe in so great a High Priest and Sacrifice.
Otherwise you will lose the everlasting life he gives:

"see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray." - 1 John 2:24-26


Or does the passage 'not really' mean what it says and we do remain in the Son and in the Father and have eternal life if what we heard in the beginning does not remain in us?

No one is un-birthed either physically or spiritually
The historical fact of birth/rebirth is not removed.
The argument is, the life given at birth/rebirth is removed.
Comprehend the argument yet?
This has nothing to do with making a physical child not born anymore, or erasing the historical fact that a person was once spiritually born again.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Acts 14:8-10
[8] And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: [9] The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, [10] Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

Paul’s effect on healing this man depended on the faith of that man.
I agree, but I’m talking about the book of James. Who’s praying? The elders. It’s the faith of the elders that heal the sick.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Osas falls flat on it's butt on the words of Hebrews 10.
It is the definitive non-osas passage.


Yes, he does give eternal life/everlasting life.
That's why you should continue to believe in so great a High Priest and Sacrifice.
Otherwise you will lose the everlasting life he gives:

"see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray." - 1 John 2:24-26


Or does the passage 'not really' mean what it says and we do remain in the Son and in the Father and have eternal life if what we heard in the beginning does not remain in us?


The historical fact of birth/rebirth is not removed.
The argument is, the life given at birth/rebirth is removed.
Comprehend the argument yet?
This has nothing to do with making a physical child not born anymore, or erasing the historical fact that a person was once spiritually born again.
Wrong again. "born" is the event... that is the analogy.

I could deal with Hebrews 10 and show it does not in any way refute OSAS....but what would be the point really?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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You asked for the post where he said that.
I showed it to you to read for yourself.
In it he plainly said Hebrews 10:29 is talking about a sanctified unbeliever.
No twisting by me required. :)
Actually he did not.
So as I said before, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
We agree that sanctified is to be set apart.
We know a genuine beliver will be set apart, a non genuine beliver will not.
In the church of the time Hebrews as written not all were genuine belivers as we see today in our churches. People over here we call pew pushers.

Yet they call themselves Christian. In fact over here we have people who profess to be Christian on census forms because we are a country calls itself a Christian country (though this is now diminishing)

Jesus himself talks about and wheat and tares and said don't uproot.

Matthew 13:29-30
29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

So as I see it @mailmandan is not saying that unbelievers are sanctified. They cannot be.

However you twist his words to support your doctrine that a genuine beliver can stop believing and use the passages in Hebrews to support your case.

As you say the OSAS at least say that a person was never a believer in the first place.
That's where you and others disagree with those who believe that.
Whilst that ok it's not but both camps will and post Bible verses to support their case.

But perverting and twisting what someone has said to support your case is not ok.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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Actually he did not.


We agree that sanctified is to be set apart.
We know a genuine beliver will be set apart, a non genuine beliver will not.
In the church of the time Hebrews as written not all were genuine belivers as we see today in our churches. People over here we call pew pushers.

Yet they call themselves Christian. In fact over here we have people who profess to be Christian on census forms because we are a country calls itself a Christian country (though this is now diminishing)

Jesus himself talks about and wheat and tares and said don't uproot.

Matthew 13:29-30
29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

So as I see it @mailmandan is not saying that unbelievers are sanctified. They cannot be.

However you twist his words to support your doctrine that a genuine beliver can stop believing and use the passages in Hebrews to support your case.

As you say the OSAS at least say that a person was never a believer in the first place.
That's where you and others disagree with those who believe that.
Whilst that ok it's not but both camps will and post Bible verses to support their case.

But perverting and twisting what someone has said to support your case is not ok.
No, Bill, the whole point of the contention between mailmandan and myself is mailmandan says the sanctified person in Hebrews 10:29 is a fake believing, unbeliever who never really believed to begin with, and I say it's the saved sanctified believer talked about right in context in vs. 10 and 14.

10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.



26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:10-14,29
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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The fact that the sick person is callling for the elders to begin with shows his faith to be healed by the elders. Does it not?
Sure, but the prayer of faith comes from the elders. My point is, this is not doctrine for today.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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No, Bill, the whole point of the contention between mailmandan and myself is mailmandan says the sanctified person in Hebrews 10:29 is a fake believing, unbeliever who never really believed to begin with, and I say it's the saved sanctified believer talked about right in context in vs. 10 and 14.
I have cut the bible verses you quoted. Not to be malicious but because we all know them and the disagreement.

I honestly cannot see @mailmandan is saying that an unbeliever is sanctified.

But your interpretation is that he said an unbeliever is sanctified.
I see him saying that as someone who profess faith in Jesus is sanctified but if that faith is not genuine then in fact they are not.

If someone in your church said they believed in Jesus would you not assume the same?
I once refused someone from being baptised, I was not sure whether he had genuine faith. So I just asked him can you do and believe the following.

Romans 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

He said no. Now he was part of our church. But actually not a genuine beliver but he said he was.

It's taking then based on what they profess to believe to the reality.

The contention you have is based on doctrine.

You say saved he says never saved.

But if I know mmd he would never ever say an unbeliever is sanctified.
As in fact as you say above he says they never believed in the first place, therefore never saved in the first place. But you say he did say they were sanctified.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,098
3,665
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Actually he did not.


We agree that sanctified is to be set apart.
We know a genuine beliver will be set apart, a non genuine beliver will not.
In the church of the time Hebrews as written not all were genuine belivers as we see today in our churches. People over here we call pew pushers.

Yet they call themselves Christian. In fact over here we have people who profess to be Christian on census forms because we are a country calls itself a Christian country (though this is now diminishing)

Jesus himself talks about and wheat and tares and said don't uproot.

Matthew 13:29-30
29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

So as I see it @mailmandan is not saying that unbelievers are sanctified. They cannot be.

However you twist his words to support your doctrine that a genuine beliver can stop believing and use the passages in Hebrews to support your case.

As you say the OSAS at least say that a person was never a believer in the first place.
That's where you and others disagree with those who believe that.
Whilst that ok it's not but both camps will and post Bible verses to support their case.

But perverting and twisting what someone has said to support your case is not ok.

Here is my understanding about supposedly losing ones Salvation, and it involves specifically TWO VERSES.

YES I BELIEVE TOTALLY IN OSAS, AND I BELIEVE IN LITERAL TRANSLATION OF THESE TWO VERSES.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

If you do not Agape Love the LORD, you never were SAVED, no matter what you think.

If you do not WANT to Please HIM with your Obedience or it seems like it is a Burden to you, would give me Reason to suspect you were never REALLY SAVED. That verse does not mean our Obedience is Perfect, but a lifestyle of striving to Obey HIM, and when we fail, that is what 1 John 1:9 it there for.


1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

You have to interpret that verse literally, or you open the door to all kinds of false interpretations. You remember the Parable of the GATES, in other words, BOTH GATES are nothing but people that call themselves CHRISTIANS. I do not understand why so many people what to believe the Narrow Gate is EVERYBODY that calls themselves Christian, WHEN IN THAT VERSE it says:
Matthew 7:14 (HCSB)
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.

IT HAS TO BE BOTH GATES are Only Those who CLAIM to be Christian. Because WAY over half of Americans claim to be Christians, and 63% just DOES NOT FIT the few find it. So a lot of Americans are self-deceived, and thinking they are Saved just because they sit on a Pew once in awhile. That is where a lot of churches promote that false believe, that you can lose your salvation, comes from. They are counting anybody who claims to Christian as saved, just because they say they believe in JESUS. Even the Demons believe in Jesus. When in my opinion 1 John 2:19, is the definitive line between true Christian and only temporary follower.





 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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I was wondering if you are going to apologize to me when you see that he did say the sanctified person in Hebrews 10:29 is an unbeliever.
Are you?
I'm betting, no.
I do not need to...
read.....

So as I said before, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
He clearly states he is using "sanctified" to mean "set apart" as part of that community, professing (using the words) but not a genuine/justified/ believer.