Not By Works

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Jan 25, 2015
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What is your point really.... all of you that believe salvation can be lost always throw up this works being necessary or else not really saved.

And then you accuse those that hold steadfast to salvation being secure and completely a gift apart from and any and all works as somehow teaching we can live how we want.

It gets very tiresome and for one makes me think people really do NOT understand .......

The Gospel/Grace/The Cross/Atonement/Adoption/Redemption/Justification/Sanctification/Abiding/Chastisement/ Union with God etc., etc., even though they think they do.
Most people on this thread attack me (like our dear brother DC) when you just mention the word “works”. I have met an atheist that is now the most vile creature on this planet that was a youth Pastors in a mega church in Johannesburg. The things coming out of his mouth is not even worth mentioning to you. Do I believe he was saved when I met him? No, he denounced Christ in so many ways that I felt sorry for him and every other person shouting “amen” in his presence. Can he be saved? Yes! A thousand times yes because God’s grace is enough.

God said in His word he will never leave us or forsake us… but we can turn our backs on Him.

So maybe the real question for me is; was he really saved to begin with? Only God can determine that.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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EleventhHour

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Most people on this thread attack me (like our dear brother DC) when you just mention the word “works”. I have met an atheist that is now the most vile creature on this planet that was a youth Pastors in a mega church in Johannesburg. The things coming out of his mouth is not even worth mentioning to you. Do I believe he was saved when I met him? No, he denounced Christ in so many ways that I felt sorry for him and every other person shouting “amen” in his presence. Can he be saved? Yes! A thousand times yes because God’s grace is enough.

God said in His word he will never leave us or forsake us… but we can turn our backs on Him.

So maybe the real question for me is; was he really saved to begin with? Only God can determine that.
The first thing to get straight is that salvation cannot be lost, forfeited, forsaken or given back according to scripture.......... not what it looks like in people's lives.

If you want to discuss from a scriptural point of view, that salvation is secure.... then many of us can show you.
 
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EleventhHour

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Jan 25, 2015
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CORRECTION: NON BORN AGAIN FOLLOWERS that go to CHURCH can turn their backs on HIM. But we do not COUNT THEM AS PART OF US, because of this verse:

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.



Like I said, YOU ARE COUNTING NON BORN AGAIN Followers, and being a disciple does not mean you are BORN AGAIN. Disciple only means FOLLOWER, and you can look that up. These PEOPLE were just Followers that have Never been BORN AGAIN. When You are BORN AGAIN, the HOLY SPIRIT changes you on the inside (Human Spirit), where you will NEVER forsake HIM, PLUS HE WILL NEVER ABANDON US. Thus that VERSE above REMAINS ABSOLUTELY TRUTH.

Why does HE address both Born Again Christians and NON BORN AGAIN Followers?

Romans 10:13-21 (HCSB)
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
14 But how can they call on Him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?
15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who announce the gospel of good things!
16 But all did not obey the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our message?
17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
18 But I ask, “Did they not hear?” Yes, they did: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.
19 But I ask, “Did Israel not understand?” First, Moses said: I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that lacks understanding.
20 And Isaiah says boldly: I was found by those who were not looking for Me; I revealed Myself to those who were not asking for Me.
21 But to Israel he says: All day long I have spread out My hands to a disobedient and defiant people.

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess {not just PROFESS, has to be TRUE in your heart for it to be a CONFESSION,} with your mouth
Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


Intellectual belief is only in your HEAD believing, and that is the same kind of faith the DEMONS had at Gadera.

Here is an example of UNSAVED FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, and NOTICE HE still calls them disciples:


John 6:66 (NIV)
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.


I know 666 was not the original BIBLE, but it is an easy way to remember disciples who were influenced by the Devil.

Here is another unsaved Disciple:

John 3:1-7 (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." {He obviously had been a follower, and he knew where Jesus was at night.}
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'


You and possibly your Church is COUNTING WAY TO MANY AS SAVED, when according to Mat. 7:14, only a FEW FIND IT.
Many you are counting are on the Broad Road to Destruction in Hades/Hell.

Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

Interesting post. Thank you VCO :)
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Why would you not want to see salvation is secure as taught in scripture, that is baffling to me?
Because I understand that salvation is secure. The only difference is that I also believe you can turn away from God after you came to Christ. So why would I keep on going in circles with you?

The fact that God states he will never leave us or forsake us is not only a NT concept. But yet He divorced Israel and gave them their freedom to lust after other gods. He will also do it with us if we so want. No amount of arguing will convince me otherwise.

On certain things we have to agree to disagree.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Because I understand that salvation is secure. The only difference is that I also believe you can turn away from God after you came to Christ. So why would I keep on going in circles with you?

The fact that God states he will never leave us or forsake us is not only a NT concept. But yet He divorced Israel and gave them their freedom to lust after other gods. He will also do it with us if we so want. No amount of arguing will convince me otherwise.

On certain things we have to agree to disagree.
Truth does not work that way....

When it comes to spiritual salvation we are talking about individuals not nations..... the gift is eternal life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, regeneration, a life hid with Christ, partaking of God's divine nature, how exactly does a person remove that from themselves?
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Truth does not work that way....

When it comes to spiritual salvation we are talking about individuals not nations..... the gift is eternal life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, regeneration, a life hid with Christ, partaking of God's divine nature, how exactly does a person remove that from themselves?
The Bible teaches us that the old is a shadow of the new that is to come. If we look at the OT, the feasts and the tabernacle is a shadow of the crucifixion of Jesus, and so we can continue.

When we say Israel as a nation was divorced from Abba Father, does this include all or were there other people left in covenant? Of course there were people left in covenant with Father. He will not force Him on us. He will never forsake us and it is a blessing to know this, but we can turn our backs on Him and He will let you go free. His divorce of Israel is also a shadow of things to come with His children. If we choose not to serve Him anymore, He will give us over to our heart’s desire just like He did with Pharaoh and the Israelites. God remains the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. We need to remember that.

God bless my friend
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The Bible teaches us that the old is a shadow of the new that is to come. If we look at the OT, the feasts and the tabernacle is a shadow of the crucifixion of Jesus, and so we can continue.

When we say Israel as a nation was divorced from Abba Father, does this include all or were there other people left in covenant? Of course there were people left in covenant with Father. He will not force Him on us. He will never forsake us and it is a blessing to know this, but we can turn our backs on Him and He will let you go free. His divorce of Israel is also a shadow of things to come with His children. If we choose not to serve Him anymore, He will give us over to our heart’s desire just like He did with Pharaoh and the Israelites. God remains the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. We need to remember that.

God bless my friend
One issue

All over the OT God prophesied that Israel would turn their backs, And they would suffer the punishments That God said he would give. So it is not like God was surprised when they fell. He knew it, in fact knew it centuries in advance

Now, Take a human Say he is 30 years old. Which means by average he has maybe 40 years left on earth. He claims to come to faith. Calls out to God. (says the sinners prayer) and claims to be born again, Then 10 Years later, Decides this christianity stuff is not for him, He still loved his sin, Turns from the gospel and basically of his free will gives God the finger and says thank you but no thank you

Are you saying God did not KNOW that would happen? when only ten years had past. When he knew centuries in advance a nation would do that very thing he did?

I find this hard to believe, As hard as I find it to believe God actually saved that person. KNOWING his faith was not true saving faith.

Remember in the OT all these men God claimed loved him, Think David and Abraham as two examples. God said they were his. Of course afterwords. Both men fell into some pretty serious sin. Some sins many here would claim forfeit their salvation. Yet as Even David declared, Sacrifice and burnt offering God did not desire

What we see is what we see in all of Gods children. The may fall into some sin. But continued even in that time having faith in God. And in turn, that continued faith caused true pain inside them, and caused them to return. because they could not continue (even though david did marry the woman of his sin. and continued in adultry if we really look at the law)

That is what separates true believers from fake (make) believers

A true believer may or will fall. but he always comes back

A make believer falls. and never returns. They become anti Christs. Who as john said, Were never of us.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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One issue

All over the OT God prophesied that Israel would turn their backs, And they would suffer the punishments That God said he would give. So it is not like God was surprised when they fell. He knew it, in fact knew it centuries in advance

Now, Take a human Say he is 30 years old. Which means by average he has maybe 40 years left on earth. He claims to come to faith. Calls out to God. (says the sinners prayer) and claims to be born again, Then 10 Years later, Decides this christianity stuff is not for him, He still loved his sin, Turns from the gospel and basically of his free will gives God the finger and says thank you but no thank you

Are you saying God did not KNOW that would happen? when only ten years had past. When he knew centuries in advance a nation would do that very thing he did?

I find this hard to believe, As hard as I find it to believe God actually saved that person. KNOWING his faith was not true saving faith.

Remember in the OT all these men God claimed loved him, Think David and Abraham as two examples. God said they were his. Of course afterwords. Both men fell into some pretty serious sin. Some sins many here would claim forfeit their salvation. Yet as Even David declared, Sacrifice and burnt offering God did not desire

What we see is what we see in all of Gods children. The may fall into some sin. But continued even in that time having faith in God. And in turn, that continued faith caused true pain inside them, and caused them to return. because they could not continue (even though david did marry the woman of his sin. and continued in adultry if we really look at the law)

That is what separates true believers from fake (make) believers

A true believer may or will fall. but he always comes back

A make believer falls. and never returns. They become anti Christs. Who as john said, Were never of us.
I am not disputing that. The thing is if God put a green sticker on my forehead the day I was born it is predestination and I can go crazy knowing I am going to heaven. God know the outcome, He is God, but I still need to live my life. Make decisions and trust God.

The example of the youth Pastor applies, if he led people to God, spoke in tongues and was on fire for Christ, how can I tell he is not true? Now he is a Philistine doing things unmentionable on a Christian website. Was he never really saved? How will we determine that? All I know is you have people on fire for Christ turning back to the world.

If they were really saved to begin with is a different argument all together my dear friend.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I am not disputing that. The thing is if God put a green sticker on my forehead the day I was born it is predestination and I can go crazy knowing I am going to heaven. God know the outcome, He is God, but I still need to live my life. Make decisions and trust God.

The example of the youth Pastor applies, if he led people to God, spoke in tongues and was on fire for Christ, how can I tell he is not true? Now he is a Philistine doing things unmentionable on a Christian website. Was he never really saved? How will we determine that? All I know is you have people on fire for Christ turning back to the world.

If they were really saved to begin with is a different argument all together my dear friend.
I Think John tells us the answer

He said they were never of us, IF they were of us, they never would have departed.

Remember, Jesus said in that day, Many will come telling him how they cast out demons, Prophesied, and done many wonders (We can add speaking in tongues, Leading people to Christ and was on fire to that list) To depart for he never knew them.

If both Jesus sand John declare they were never of us, Then we should understand, They were never saved

They were not given ETERNAL LIFE. and th SEAL of the spirit only to have that removed..

They never had it to begin with.

OR. they are in a prodigal state. But even then (I was a prodigal for 5 years) I never stopped denying Jesus or what I was..
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Use scripture to show this. If you cannot, then it is not a biblical truth.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Through Ephraim (melo ha goyim/ multitude of nations) we form part of Israel.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Through Ephraim (melo ha goyim/ multitude of nations) we form part of Israel.
I think we discussed separating out how God dealt with Israel as a nation, the Old Covenant and individuals.

We are not under the Old Covenant which was conditional blessing.....geesh.....this really reeks of dishonesty man....serious and = conflating two covenants which is false and not a biblical stance!
So can we please move on... maybe something from the New Testament?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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I am not disputing that. The thing is if God put a green sticker on my forehead the day I was born it is predestination and I can go crazy knowing I am going to heaven. God know the outcome, He is God, but I still need to live my life. Make decisions and trust God.

The example of the youth Pastor applies, if he led people to God, spoke in tongues and was on fire for Christ, how can I tell he is not true? Now he is a Philistine doing things unmentionable on a Christian website. Was he never really saved? How will we determine that? All I know is you have people on fire for Christ turning back to the world.

If they were really saved to begin with is a different argument all together my dear friend.
The OT saints who loved God never turned their back on Him.
The NT saints who love Jesus don't turn their back on Him either.
Yes there may be a season of darkness and sin, but the departure is never permanent if true love exists.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I think we discussed separating out how God dealt with Israel as a nation, the Old Covenant and individuals.



So can we please move on... maybe something from the New Testament?
I could be mistaken, have not interacted with ganwhite in quite a while, but I think ganwhite thinks that one has to keep the Law and the Sabbath to be saved.

that could explain why the O.T. push...