Not By Works

[Lucy-Pevensie]

And every negative thing you say about OSAS over there, is too STRANGE compared to our Doctrines, it is like night and day.

Believe what you want, and I will believe what the HOLY SPIRIT puts on my heart to BELIEVE,

Doctrines, I thought it was one characteristic of Christian faith.
How many doctrines are there surrounding this issue?

It seems to have become a bit of a monster.

 

[DorothyMae]

I also didn't get an adequate answer for that question. To a certain extent, the concept of salvation is beyond human intelligence.

I don’t think salvation is beyond human intelligence at all. I think it perfectly reasonable and loving.

 

[DorothyMae]

Doctrines, I thought it was one characteristic of Christian faith.
How many doctrines are there surrounding this issue?

It seems to have become a bit of a monster.

And the Holy Spirit is doing the teaching. I actually think the measure of that is in the fruit the teaching produces both character and understanding.

 

[DorothyMae]

DorothyMae...I appreciate your posts...they are full of insight...they are helping me to look at things differently....you have a lot of knowledge.....you think deeply ...plus study...that is something I am learning to do....studying scriptures....I think we need a balance of both the heart and bible knowledge.

Thats very sweet Jackrosie and it blesses me tremendously.

 

[EleventhHour]

You can mock and laugh at me but by doing so you reveal
the fruit of your theology. It is not Agape love.....a tree reveals its fruit.

Do you also just change your mind instead of asking forgiveness when you have wronged others?

Mocking, I explained the word "metanoia" and the problem with the word "repentance" as being loaded with meaning that does not exist in the word "metanoia"

As I recall you mocked the true meaning of the word.

If you do not want to believe me go study the Greek word in is historical-linguistical context.

 

[Pulie]

Was it because you did not have enough faith? If your mind was not renewed. Something was seriously wrong
I agree with the renewed part. let me say my mind was partially renewed and I decided to have faith in Christ but my life did not drastically change on the spot.
How much faith do I need for my life to drastically change on the spot?
How much faith did you have?
So I need "enough faith",so that my mind can be renewed or "enough faith" to believe in Christ?


If they ended their again. Did they have faith. I would say no
no faith. No salvation
So faith without action/deeds leads to no salvation at all?

He who began a good work in you will complete it. This is the promise of God

Amen

You focus to
Much on self. You should
Focus more on God, That’s why I also Tend to question your faith.

So you don't read the Bible and you also don't confess your sins?you question my faith on the basis of reading the Bible and confessing my sins?

You mentioned the word "faith" many times and never said anything about focusing on God, thus my conclusion would be "you tend to focus to much on yourself and not on God.
Instead I asked you questions so that I can get some clarity. I can't judge you based on the mention of "enough faith", since I read your other posts.

I mentioned "repent" and" "changed my ways", and your conclusion was I tend to focus too much on myself and not on God. What if I just wanted to go straight to the point and assumed that you read my other posts which mentioned dependence on God?

Some of the things I said were just scenarios.

Stage? There is on stage. That is to have faith in Christ. At that stage he adopts you as his child and begin me to renew you on the inside and out

Remember he who began that work (at first stage). Will
Complete it
Amen, I love that scripture.

 

[EleventhHour]

Dear Pulie, on this thread there are many people without manners that think they can talk to you the way they will talk to their parents, partners and kids. You have asked a valid question. I hope somebody will take time to get to know you first before calling you names next time.

I wonder where people's manners are when the correct biblical doctrine of "eternally saved (OSAS) by grace through faith apart from

works lest any man should boast" is expounded by us in hopes to bring someone out of false teaching and defend the Gospel.... we

are then in turn ACCUSED of promoting licentiousness, lawlessness and a Christian walk devoid of good works.

 

[Pulie]

I don’t think salvation is beyond human intelligence at all. I think it perfectly reasonable and loving.

"To a certain extent"
Calvinists, armenists etc are wrestling with this concept. e.g predestination.
Yes it's very loving, no doubt about that.

 

[DorothyMae]

Mocking, I explained the word "metanoia" and the problem with the word "repentance" as being loaded with meaning that does not exist in the word "metanoia"

As I recall you mocked the true meaning of the word.

If you do not want to believe me go study the Greek word in is historical-linguistical context.

You laughed at an inappropriate response. This you forget. I actually asked you a real question which you decline to answer. Do you just “change your mind” when you’ve sinned against others instead of asking forgiveness?

VCO, do you what I mean with the lack of that Agape love that was supposedly given at salvation and results in good works?

 

[EleventhHour]

Dear VCO, I work in science and test theories as a part of that training. So let us test this theology. Do the people in your church find that when the become Christiains, interpersonal relationships are so vastly different such that indications of godly love are seen in no divorce, no hard or hurtful words wihtout godly love quickly resulting in reconciliation. Christian teenagers are lovingly obedient to their parents and so on. If this is not the case, then what happened to the godly love that come in unbidden that is so powerfully inspiring christians to behave that way?

If you tell me it is a process then I ask upon what does it depend? If God is pouring this love so that you automatically have it, how can that be a process since it depends solely upon being saved and nothing else? I know you call this sanctification but you have two positions that don't fit.

On one hand this love is poured out without any effort on the part of the recepient. Since the recepient is much weaker than the giver, and since this love is a powerful motivation, it doesn't make sense that human weakness is more powerful than this love. Why should it be a process? Salvation is not a process.
OSAS is an AMerican invention so I don't know any Germans who believe this except the Calvinists. But of course they believe salvation is a done deal before anyone was born.

So you know those who are not saved by them later leaving? The standard of agape love is not a measure, right?

VCO, I understand perfectly the OSAS position. I have talked with numerous OSAS believers. Lots and lots of them. And one thing that has marked many of them, but not all, is a very hateful attitude towards anyone who does not believe in OSAS. This agape love is not seen in their posts towards anyone who does not believe as they do. Deep intolerance and somewhat of a vengeful heart is what is seen. I also had seen no good fruit coming out of that theology. I have seen them freely sin against others in full assurance that nothing eternal is affected. I am not hurt just surprised at the vindictiveness of these believers over their theology. That some claim that agape love is poured out into their hearts is betrayed by seeming to hate those who disagree with them.

What I see OSAS does is pick out scriptures from different places in the bible and build a case for their position from statments isolated from one another in actual presentation. No one in the Bible gave a cohesive presentation of the theology in one flowing thought. It is like this, the Bible says salvation is a gift. It also says the gift of GOd are not withdrawn. Therefore salvation cannot be withdrawn. Now those statments are not put together by any writer of the Bible. It is done so by human desire and logic for this to be true.

VCO, there are OSAS believers in our church and I have no problem with them except their intolerance of any other view that slips out at times. OTherwise we fellowship and talk and laugh and sing together, no problem. Their intolerance I tolerate. We do not have to agree to have warm fellowship as far as my side is concerned. The Vindictive or unloving brethren (despite your claim that they are filled with agape love at salvation) I forgive as they need forgiveness.

VCO, dare I say that I do not expect you to understand my position? Is it fair if I respond to you as you respond to me? I truthfully do not think you will understand but think that I am into works salvation. I have not met an OSAS believer who did not think those who reject OSAS think works save us. That there is another option has not seem to occured to anyone I have met so far. Even when I explain my position I am accused of working my own salvation.

But thanks for the kind answers. I do value that greatly.

You should know once saved always saved is the Gospel and for this reason, yes, those who know this truth defend it stridently.

 

[Pulie]

I know they’re not. Don’t forget snarky one, this is the BIBLE Discussion Forum, not your personal likes forum.

Thank you for reminding me.

 

[EleventhHour]

For anyone interested,

This was pretty funny, appealing to the "audience" ..................do you not have a sense of humor...com'on now.

You laughed at an inappropriate response. This you forget. I actually asked you a real question which you decline to answer. Do you just “change your mind” when you’ve sinned against others instead of asking forgiveness?

VCO, do you what I mean with the lack of that Agape love that was supposedly given at salvation and results in good works?

Bring forth a scripture and then I will respond to your question.

 

[jackrosie]

You should know once saved always saved is the Gospel and for this reason, yes, those who know this truth defend it stridently.

Can you show me scripture where it says OSAS?

I am confused over it....thank you.

 

[DorothyMae]

I wonder where people's manners are when the correct biblical doctrine of "eternally saved (OSAS) by grace through faith apart from

works lest any man should boast" is expounded by us in hopes to bring someone out of false teaching and defend the Gospel.... we

are then in turn ACCUSED of promoting licentiousness, lawlessness and a Christian walk devoid of good works.

Shall we quote your nasty words?

VCO, do you see what

"To a certain extent"
Calvinists, armenists etc are wrestling with this concept. e.g predestination.
Yes it's very loving, no doubt about that.

One can see the love in how Calvin treated those who didn’t accept his theology.

 

[EleventhHour]

Shall we quote your nasty words?

VCO, do you see what

One can see the love in how Calvin treated those who didn’t accept his theology.

Fyi.... I am quite far from Calvinism.

 

[DorothyMae]

This was pretty funny, appealing to the "audience" ..................do you not have a sense of humor...com'on now.

Bring forth a scripture and then I will respond to your question.

I’m not appealing to the audience as a trick. There are others reading deserve to read a different view.

You want a verse to tell you that repentance and asking for forgiveness requires the heart? You otherwise do not believe the heart is involved when you deeply wrong someone at all? Are you serious?

 

[jackrosie]

Can you show me scripture where it says OSAS?

I am confused over it....thank you.

I don’t understand why you gave me a thumbs up....have you any scripture to support OSAS?...thank you.

 

[DorothyMae]

Fyi.... I am quite far from Calvinism.

You can explain how if you wish. The fruit is the same. Assurance of heaven no matter what evil you do has bad fruit in way too many.

 

[jackrosie]

I’m not appealing to the audience as a trick. There are others reading deserve to read a different view.

You want a verse to tell you that repentance and asking for forgiveness requires the heart? You otherwise do not believe the heart is involved when you deeply wrong someone at all? Are you serious?

The heart is definitely involved when you wrong someone knowingly......God would like us to apologise with a sincere heart...that’s my belief.

 

[DorothyMae]

The heart is definitely involved when you wrong someone knowingly......God would like us to apologise with a sincere heart...that’s my belief.

You are correct. The other thinks it’s merely changing your mind, cut and dry cause she’s got a Greek dictionary