Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree....salvation is eternal and it cannot be lost nor forfeit by what men may or may not do.....The promise is of God and if men can alleviate the promises of God and or negate the eternal life found in Christ then God is weak and cannot keep his word.....

Obviously I believe he can and does.......!

It is like his promise to abraham, He promised he would make a great nation from him, and they would last forever, and he would give them some land.

He keeps that promise even til today, The nation is punished for unbelief, and sins, just like we are. But God promised, no matter w=how bad they got he would never forsake them.

The problem is people want to not see the unconditional "I WILL" covenant, as hears to abrahams covenant, and want to make it a conditional "IF YOU DO THIS, I WILL DO THAT" Covenant. which is symbolized by the law.

 

[mailmandan]

So then how do you get around that word "eternal"? Or do you redefine it to actually mean conditional?

Scripture disagrees with you. "And I give them eternal life" not "I give them conditional life"

Amen! Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

E- How does the rest of God's promises in 2 Tim 2.11-13 fit into the one verse you quoted?

[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a trustworthy statement:For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Vs 13 is not stand alone is it? There are other conditions in verse's 11-12, that explain Vs 13, right?

I read Vs 13 to mean that when we are faithless to God, God remains faithful to his covenant, because he will not deny what he says.

One cannot really just quote Vs 13 without verses 11-12 can they?

Peter did deny christ three times, Did God deny him?

I think the first verse in that list says it all.

If we died with him (which we did when we were first saved, and made a child of God) we WILL LIVE with him, this is eternal life

I also believe that some Paul spoke to were not yet saved, And as the apostle John said, would later deny Christ, and become as John calls them antichrists, John said clearly, they were never of us, for if they were, they would never have departed. But they departed to prety much expose who they were. That they were not a part of us (never saved to begin with)

Thats why peter did deny hm, But God did not deny him, Because peter was saved, He just fell in the tie of weakness,, Yet God restored him without even asking him to repent.

This the truth of eternal security.

I have know people who had true faith and then denied him and died denying him....If we seek to understand Verse 11 properly then God was faithful to his side of the covenant when they were faithless and he denied them, because they denied him because he will not deny what he says he will do and his word in Vs 11 makes it very clear...If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

This is falling away because of hurt and offense, backsliding, deception, etc.

I have to ask, And I hope you take this sincerely, not mockingly,

How do you now they had true faith? Were you God. Did you give them eternal life? Did you give them the assurance they would never die, Live forever, Be raised on the last day? Did you give them the seal of the spirit as a guarantee or pledge? did you give them the hope of eternal life, and promise to never forsake them? Did you give them the promise of the will of God, that whoever comes to God he will never let get away?

That is eternal life, If these things can be lost for any reason, God is a liar. He can not be trusted, and he can not keep his own promises.

Again, I take you to John. which answers the question about what of people who claimed to have faith once, then left denying Christ.

1 John 2:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[SUP][c][/SUP] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

As you can see, A person who denys christ is called an antichrist

Many of them were a part of the church, You could say they had faith, but then they departed the church, and now deny God, Just like that verse you posted said, If we deny God he will deny us, Yet John makes it clear. they were never saved, They never had saving faith, All they had at most was mere belief, if they even had that, And as a dog, they returned to their own vomit. Their true nature (as always) was eventually exposed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Too many posts to catch up.., It was nice to read the Convo between EG, Fran and Meggido. Wish we had more civil and heartfelt conversations like that here on CC,

It seems to happen once a week or so,

Anyway, hope everyone has a blessed night. VBS went well for those interested,

It was nice, I was blessed by it, Glad you were also.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

13,000 posts, and they are still here telling you can sin and surely not die. Amazing..

And your here telling us you have made it, You have arrived, You do not need God anymore, Puffing your chest, and praising God how you are not like us sinners.

And get angry when we say you act like those arrogant self righteous pharisees.

Hey I got an Idea. If you do not need God anymore, Then why don't you go to another room.. Leave us sinners alone so we can continue to seek God

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hebrews 4, God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him...It sounds like works to me, and a life long journey at that....

again, the not of works gospel reminds me of the story of the little red hen...

He is a rewarder.

Salvation is not a reward, it is a gift, Eternal life is not a reward but a gift, Made children of God is not a reward it is a gift, Being adopted is not a reward, it is a gift, Being redeemed, Justified, etc etc is not a reward is it a gift.

All of these are done not because of works of righteousness (good deeds or works) we have done but By Gods mercy.

He rewards those who are his children, not those who are dead in sin, who have never received the gift of salvation

No one here is preaching against works. So please. take your lies and slander elsewhere.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good morning Dcon,
Did you just have a nervous breakdown?

I'm beginning to realize that maybe those that refuse to acknowledge that good works are NECESSARY might feel that they are incapable of them

Fran, we had some good conversation yesterday, Can we please try to continue

No one here is preaching against works, I so wish you and a few others would stop believing this lie, We believe works can not save us, and no amount of work we do will ever maintain our salvation, We believe all works are a result of salvation, not a means to keep it.

and so have grasped onto the New HyperGrace Christianity that says that WE must do NOTHING to keep our salvation BUT BELIEVE.

I know you hate hyper-grace WOF, I know you hate calvanism, But to come up with this idea that they started this new idea that we must not do anything to maintain our salvation is not true. It is a new testament idea, in fact it is even an OT idea. even david understood the law could not save him, and sacrifice and burnt offering of the priest could not allow him forgiveness. David coited many grace sins, yet was called a man after Gods heart as a child. Abraham commited many grave sins, But was imputed righteousness before he commited them or did any work.

What we see in both of them was growth, Abraham went from laughing at God, to having so great faith in God he was willing to sacrifice his son. David understood grace so deeply, he ended up writting many of the psalms, and wanted, but was refused, to build God a house. so the ark could rest.

Granted, I hate a denial of free will, And WOF has hurt alot of people and i think is very dangerous, But to deny grace and eternal security (OSAS) because you hate the rest seems a little overboard to me.. Most all churches has some truth, We shoudl not deny all that these churches teach are a lie. and miss the important parts which are true.

Isreal did that, when they made up these books and called them equal to scripture for fear they would suffer babylon again, WHat was the result, Well ad 70 was part of it.

Again, If you must work to maintain salvation, Your working to earn it, They are the same concept.

And there is nothing you can do to cause God to forgive one sin, let alone the many sins we commit on a monthly bases, we would be deep in debt against God so fact with all the sins, we would be lost with no hope.

the only thing which can forgive sin is the shedding of blood, ie, the cross. The cross occured 2000 years ago. Do you believe God placed all your sin on his body or do you not? Are you trusting God for your past sin, and self for your future, or do you trust God for all your sin?

Just asking.

 

[PennEd]

PennEd

I'm writing this to remind you that I started going down the list last evening.
Most of what you have posted is in present tense and I agree with all of it.

As long as we are IN CHRIST at the time of our Death, we will be saved eternally.
As long as we did not forsake God and turn our backs on Him.

It's Always difficult for me to understand what persons believe since there is so much untruth making the rounds today.

Some are pure Calvinists.
Some are not accepting of all 5 points.
Some believe one is unable to return to the world.
Some believe that one CAN return to the world, but it means they were never saved to begin with.

I, otoh, am a traditional Christian. I believe what the Church has taught forever until Calvin came along, with some help from Luther.

We are saved by FAITH.
IF we have FAITH, we are saved.
IF we DO NOT have FAITH, we cannot be saved.

We cannot have it both ways. Either faith saves us or it doesn't.
Either we're IN THE KINGDOM, or we're out of it. Our choice. I believe we retain our free will after salvation.

Christianity cannot change with time. It must remain a constant or it is of no value.
Christianity cannot adhere to the world.
The World must adhere to Christianity.

It cannot change because our society changes.
God is the same Yesterday, today and forever.
Hebrews 13:8

Morning Fran! Yes we on the USA east coast think the world revolves around eastern standard time!

Thank you for reading that list and replying. I agree as long as we remain in Christ and He in us we are saved. Where we differ is that He is the one who keeps us in Him, and He has said He would NEVER leave us nor forsake us. I believe Him. If I stray, He leaves the 99 and searches for me, til He finds me or draws me to Him.

I am His child. How could any parent not go after his child when they stray? Am I a sheep or a goat? I'm not both. Once I'm a sheep I forever remain a sheep. I can't transform myself into a goat. I like the analogy that a cucumber once "baptized" into vinegar CANNOT revert to being a pickle again!

 

[Meggido]

Peter did deny christ three times, Did God deny him?

I think the first verse in that list says it all.

If we died with him (which we did when we were first saved, and made a child of God) we WILL LIVE with him, this is eternal life

I also believe that some Paul spoke to were not yet saved, And as the apostle John said, would later deny Christ, and become as John calls them antichrists, John said clearly, they were never of us, for if they were, they would never have departed. But they departed to prety much expose who they were. That they were not a part of us (never saved to begin with)

Thats why peter did deny hm, But God did not deny him, Because peter was saved, He just fell in the tie of weakness,, Yet God restored him without even asking him to repent.



I have to ask, And I hope you take this sincerely, not mockingly,

How do you now they had true faith? Were you God. Did you give them eternal life? Did you give them the assurance they would never die, Live forever, Be raised on the last day? Did you give them the seal of the spirit as a guarantee or pledge? did you give them the hope of eternal life, and promise to never forsake them? Did you give them the promise of the will of God, that whoever comes to God he will never let get away?

That is eternal life, If these things can be lost for any reason, God is a liar. He can not be trusted, and he can not keep his own promises.

Again, I take you to John. which answers the question about what of people who claimed to have faith once, then left denying Christ.

1 John 2:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[SUP][c][/SUP] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

As you can see, A person who denys christ is called an antichrist

Many of them were a part of the church, You could say they had faith, but then they departed the church, and now deny God, Just like that verse you posted said, If we deny God he will deny us, Yet John makes it clear. they were never saved, They never had saving faith, All they had at most was mere belief, if they even had that, And as a dog, they returned to their own vomit. Their true nature (as always) was eventually exposed.

No mocking here bro, we are just doing what the section says, Bible discussion.

How was Paul talking to Timothy about unbelievers? That does not fit the context of 2 Timothy 2 at all.
Paul was giving Timothy alone instructions.

You cannot simply hang onto Vs 13 and disregard the rest of the conditions Found in Vs 11 and 12. These are not talking about someone, they are talking about actions that must be met.

Did you notice that Vs 11-13 all start with the word IF, IF in the bible, OT or NT always implies a condition to be met, not a guarantee and certainly not talking about unbelievers. 2 Chron 7.14 is the same way IF you will I will....

This is not language that guarantees you anything. This is covenant relationship language. Not one verse in 2 Tim2 is talking about unbelievers it is exhorting Timothy to endure hardship and how to be a personal vessel unto God.

If we die with him,
we will also live with him.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we endure hardship,
we will reign with him.
If we deny him,
he will deny us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we are unfaithful,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot deny who he is.

How was Peter saved by grace through the new covenant? The new Covenant was not completed until Jesus Ascended and sat at the right hand of the Father?

I think perhaps it would be wise for you to read all of 2 Tim 2 to gain context, because on the surface you seem to be using 1 verse out 26 to claim God does not lie about eternal life.

I would agree God does not lie about anything. John 17.3 is the definition of eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're right on verse 13, of course.

But the OSAS'ers refuse to see this.

It would seem, at first glance, that verse 12 and 13 conflict with each other.
But no matter to them, if it sounds good, just post it.

GOD REMAINS FAITHFUL TO HIMSELF. TO HIS COVENANT.

He promised to save people and accept them into the Kingdom. This will Always be TRUE because HE SAID IT.

But verse 12 says if WE DENY HIM, HE WILL DENY US.
HE will ONLY REMAIN FAITHFUL TO US, as long as we do NOT DENY HIM.


Pretty easy when you have your theology right.

Yes he he remains faithful to himself

hi will, that all who come to him and trust themselves to him shall

never hunger or thirst, never die, live forever, has eternal life, and be risen on the last day, oh and Jesus was given this promise also according to the will of God, that all he is given he will lose nothing

so if this can be lost. And he has to take these things back from one person, he must deny himself, because he want against his own will.

your war against hypergrace and Calvinism is your downfall, I beg of you to stop looking at what some men taught, and look at the whole council of god.

Calvin denies free will and God best God a bad name, Armenian Denies god will keep his promise, and makes mistakes giving his salvation to people knowing he will have to take it back. (God knows everything you and I will do until the day we die, you will not do something that surprises god, )

they both have have serious problems. So let's stop following them or Rome, and try to follow gods word, please?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now we need the 1 John test?

I need to make sure I'm TRULY in the faith?
What does this mean?
You mean trusting Jesus is not enough for your side of the isle?

You mean having faith is not enough? What is TRUE FAITH?
I thought the word FAITH had a specific meaning. It has changed with the times?

Your side is full of doubt, for some reason.
Those on my side of the isle don't need confirmation and Assurance all the time.
We're trusting in Jesus, HE is our confirmation and Assurance.

What's yours?

We need a test to see who is of God and who isn't?
If you're IN THE KINGDOM, you're of God.

If you're NOT IN THE KINGDOM, you're not of God.

Jesus came to preach the Kingdom. Are you in it or not?
John 3:3,5

Chris is NOT off base.
He's spot on and you should pay heed to what he says.
After all, what he says is in line with the Chistianity of the last 2,000 years.
(before all the modern changes came along. Do you think Jesus became "modern" at some point?)

it evidently is not is not enough for your side, you have to add works to maintain it.

sometimes I think we all just need to think what we are saying, we would not make such odd Statements that apply to ourselves as much as it does the people we talk to. Maybe even more

 

[Stephen63]

So then how do you get around that word "eternal"? Or do you redefine it to actually mean conditional?

Scripture disagrees with you. "And I give them eternal life" not "I give them conditional life"

Is Jesus' blood not sufficient to save a person completely of their sins?

Just some examples of eternal. Too many to post on here, but others have already shared some....



John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent"

Matthew 25:46: "....And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous (saved) into eternal life"

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 10:28: "...And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand"

I remember there was a time you didn't believe eternal security. *sigh*

 

[PennEd]

PennEd

I'm writing this to remind you that I started going down the list last evening.
Most of what you have posted is in present tense and I agree with all of it.

As long as we are IN CHRIST at the time of our Death, we will be saved eternally.
As long as we did not forsake God and turn our backs on Him.

It's Always difficult for me to understand what persons believe since there is so much untruth making the rounds today.

Some are pure Calvinists.
Some are not accepting of all 5 points.
Some believe one is unable to return to the world.
Some believe that one CAN return to the world, but it means they were never saved to begin with.

I, otoh, am a traditional Christian. I believe what the Church has taught forever until Calvin came along, with some help from Luther.

We are saved by FAITH.
IF we have FAITH, we are saved.
IF we DO NOT have FAITH, we cannot be saved.

We cannot have it both ways. Either faith saves us or it doesn't.
Either we're IN THE KINGDOM, or we're out of it. Our choice. I believe we retain our free will after salvation.

Christianity cannot change with time. It must remain a constant or it is of no value.
Christianity cannot adhere to the world.
The World must adhere to Christianity.

It cannot change because our society changes.
God is the same Yesterday, today and forever.
Hebrews 13:8

I will attempt to show, using a verse almost universely used to show that we can lose salvation, that we CANNOT lose what God has given us and what we have become.

[h=1]Hebrews 6:4-6King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So this verse seems to imply that those who at one time believed in Jesus as God in the Flesh, Him dying for our sin, and being resurrected to life, and then NOT believe anymore that Gospel, can NEVER again be a believer and be saved.

1 John 19-20 clearly states that they NEVER saved to begin with, they only "tasted" of the gift, and not imbibed of it.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

So what does "tasting the Heavenly gift" mean?

Living in beautiful Italy I'm sure you are familiar with fine wine, and possibly have gone on wine tasting tours. I'll relate tasting the Heavenly gift to a wine tasting tour.
You can all day go from vineyard to vineyard tasting wine. Smell it. Swirl it around in your mouth. And finally SPIT IT OUT! BUT you DO NOT get the effects of that wine because you didn't imbibe it. So you do not get intoxicated by it.

Now those that DO imbibe, can get intoxicated to the point of vomiting, (unfortunately I'm very aware of that fact!) BUT THE EFFECTS, (intoxication) remain.

There are those that sit in Church, get caught up in the music, maybe go on Christian retreat. Spend a lot of time around other believers. BUT THEY THEMSELVES NEVER REALLY BELIEVED! If they, who have tasted the Heavenly gift, reject Christ after learning the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth, it is impossible for them to come to Him.

But those that HAVE imbibed the Holy Spirit, are now intoxicated with Him, and we CANNOT become unintoxicated!

Does this make sense to you!




[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No mocking here bro, we are just doing what the section says, Bible discussion.

How was Paul talking to Timothy about unbelievers? That does not fit the context of 2 Timothy 2 at all.
Paul was giving Timothy alone instructions.

You cannot simply hang onto Vs 13 and disregard the rest of the conditions Found in Vs 11 and 12. These are not talking about someone, they are talking about actions that must be met.

Did you notice that Vs 11-13 all start with the word IF, IF in the bible, OT or NT always implies a condition to be met, not a guarantee and certainly not talking about unbelievers. 2 Chron 7.14 is the same way IF you will I will....

This is not language that guarantees you anything. This is covenant relationship language. Not one verse in 2 Tim2 is talking about unbelievers it is exhorting Timothy to endure hardship and how to be a personal vessel unto God.

If we die with him,
we will also live with him.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we endure hardship,
we will reign with him.
If we deny him,
he will deny us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we are unfaithful,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot deny who he is.

How was Peter saved by grace through the new covenant? The new Covenant was not completed until Jesus Ascended and sat at the right hand of the Father?

I think perhaps it would be wise for you to read all of 2 Tim 2 to gain context, because on the surface you seem to be using 1 verse out 26 to claim God does not lie about eternal life.

I would agree God does not lie about anything. John 17.3 is the definition of eternal life.

Hey bro, yes we are just discussing amen,

i have a question, can the bible contradict itself?

can we make a doctrine out of a few verses?

I gave you first john, he let us know what the situation is with people who were part of a church, and left and became deniers of Christ, that the were never saved to begin with

how do you make that and 2 Timothy agree,

in other words, if Paul is saying a person can be saved, deny Christ, and gave up that salvation, and John said those same people never had salvation.

who do we believe.,

i also showed you verse 11, where he said we will live as long as he lives, how do you make that and saying we can die, Lose salvation, or give it up salvation, while Jesus is still alive.

The Bible must agree with itself right?

 

[Grace777x70]

It is important to read all scripture "in context". This is also true of 2 Tim. 2:11-13. Some times certain words get defined from our religious teachings and traditions. The word "deny" is one such word.

2 Timothy 2:8-13 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

[SUP]12 [/SUP] If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Paul in context is talking about suffering in hardships for the gospel's sake and how we have died with Christ and are raised with Him. Even if we "deny-contradict" what is true - Jesus Himself will "deny-contradict" what we are saying.

You could say that you are not righteous but have to earn your righteousness by what you do or don't do but Jesus will 'contradict" that statement and say that God has made us to be the righteousness of God in Christ.

The Greek for "deny" means "to contradict" - to say the opposite of something that is true.

perhaps from <G1> (a) (as a negative particle) and the middle of <G4483> (rheo); to contradict,

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

This Greek word is used of people denying or contradicting that Jesus is Lord and Savior and it is also used when denying or contradicting one self as well as we see it used in 2 Tim. 2:12-13

Here is what some Greek scholars say about the Greek word - deny, contradict.

Arneomai is set in antithesis to homologeō “to confess”: “He (John the Baptist) confessed, and denied not; but confessed” (John 1:20).

Just as [FONT="Gentium" !important]homologeō[/FONT] can apply to confessing one’s sin as well as confessing one’s faith, so too, [FONT="Gentium" !important]arneomai[/FONT]/ [FONT="Gentium" !important]aparneomai[/FONT] can indicate denial from two widely different perspectives.

It can mean to “renounce” or “deny” oneself, i.e., self-denial, but it can also denote “to deny” the faith or God.

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Alpha-Gamma.

If we contradict ourselves ( behave unlike our true selves because of wrong teachings and beliefs ) Jesus will contradict us and prove us wrong in our beliefs.

This is the context of 2 Tim. 2:11-13 Jesus will contradict what us believers say what is true about Him and ourselves that have died and rose again as one with Him. Jesus will also contradict those that refuse to come to believe in Him as Lord and Savior when they see Him face to face.

 

[PeterJens]

Eternal life - Life without end or death.

So what is the difference between life as we know it and eternal life?
It is life without the 2nd death.

So you only know you have eternal life it truth when the 2nd death occurs.
It is like getting a ticket for a train. You only know you will be on that train
when you are on it. The ticket is just a promise.

Now promises can be taken away, because the rules about the fulfillment of
the promise are in the hands of the giver of the promise.

What some are reading into eternal life is a new mystical self, that is eternal and
cannot die. Now this is a religious construct.

Scripture talks of hearts of stone turned into hearts of flesh. This could be confusing
because walking in the flesh is sinful and evil.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:26

Here the two pictures are a heart that does not respond to a heart that does respond.

To enter the Kingdom we are born again, ie remade spiritually, brought into spiritual
existance. Now this idea is extended to an eternal spirit that is perfect, whole and
pure. But scripture talks about being a new creation, something made within which
was not there before. And the picture is also reinforced that this new life can die, be
destroyed, be harmed, fail, get eaten up.

Now it matters to know when we are given life in Christ we must walk in it, to learn
the breadth of life. Life in Christ is walking in the Spirit that leads to eternity, and walking
in the flesh leads to death. We are called to put to death the deeds of the old man, the
flesh, evil that we once partook in.

Some appear to want to compromise on these miss-deeds of the past and continue in them
in the present. How is that?

 

[Zmouth]

2 Timothy 2:8-13 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

How was Jesus a descendant of David? The scriptures show that Joseph was of the house of David but where is written that Mary was of the house of David?

 

[Grace777x70]

Seeing that we have the life of God in us now are new creations in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. If God dies then we too can die.


God Himself needs to die before His life in us dies.

'The humanistic natural mind always misses the ways of God . As far as the stars are above the earth - that is how high God's way s and above our humanistic ways.

 

[Enow]

How was Jesus a descendant of David? The scriptures show that Joseph was of the house of David but where is written that Mary was of the house of David?

Joseph ... to son of David.

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Women are not considered a head in a household and so Joseph as a son in law assumes that head in tracing back Mary;s connection to David... it goes further back but we shall stop at David.

Luke 3:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,......


Luke was a physician and in dealing with women that give births, he would traced the family lineage of Mary's by way of Joseph as the son in law and thus head of the household to David whereas Matthew the tax collector would directly stick with the head of the household in tracing Joseph's lienage back to David as the men are the ones that pay taxes as head of the family.

 

[PeterJens]

Self made righteousness or DIY religion

It is very odd that those who invent their own interpretations of Jesus and His words,
construct their own lack of need to walk without sinning, are the ones claiming others
are building their own righteousness by obeying Christ.

We are called to walk in the light, to be Gods righteousness on earth, to demonstrate
Christ in us by being overcomers of sin. It makes no sense if we are still dominated by
besetting sin and trouble, because the power of the cross is victory over sin and death.

Now some claim they have tried to conquer sin by obeying the rules, like Paul before he
came to faith. He found all it created was condemnation and hypocracy.

But in Christ he became Holy, pure, blameless, righteous, cleansed and empowered by love
which fulfilled the law without even trying.

So those who moan it is impossible, are moaning they have yet to find love in their hearts,
or the power of the cross in their lives. Only by Christ is His way not a burden and easy.

This is why I wonder what defeat is causing such despair. It is sorrow and mourning before
the Lord that bring victory and resurrection in faith.

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

James is declaring a simple reality. We are a righteous people who when we pray to
God He listens. It was possible for the disciples and is possible for us.

9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.
Phil 1:9-11

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
Col 3:5

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
col 3:11-14

So if I am sharing Gods word and encouraging you all to walk in love and Christ,
how can this now be called evil? Only one being denies the power of the cross
and opposes walking in Jesus's ways, so you have a choice. Follow Christ in need
and grace or rebel and blame you weaknesses for not fulfilling the promise, rather
than sincerely repenting and seeking the power of the living God.