Not By Works

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Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
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You know you made this assertion and then you give me and agree. :unsure:

It is biblical.

The very Gospel is saved and always saved.
No, the very gospel is that we “are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. (Romans 3:24-25, NRSV)

There is not the slightest hint here that once having been justified, we will not return to our sin and no longer be in a saved state. Let us not forget that salvation is salvation from sin (Matt. 1:21)—and that all too many Christians return to their sin.

2 Peter 2:15. Forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
16. but was rebuked for his own transgression; a dumb ass spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
17. These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm; for them the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved.
18. For, uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error.
19. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved.
20. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire. (RSV)
 
May 23, 2020
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I guess you miss the context. Still, Jesus makes clear that those He knows give to others in need, not steal from them like Judas did.

Do you deny that Jesus is God?
What contex are you talking about that I missed? They came to Jesus saying Lord (acknowledge him as Lord) and he said he didn’t know them. What is the missed contex?

Where did Jesus day to them that those who know him give to others in need and not steal? I mean it’s true but I don’t recall any saying by him those who love him don’t steal.

Since Jesus knew what was in Judas’ heart he knew him. There is more than just him knowing one apparently.
 
May 23, 2020
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DorothyMae, I will answer you tomorrow......it’s midnight where I am and I got to work tomorrow....

By the way, Martyrs are incredibly special to God.....NOT EVERYONE gets a Martyrs crown.....:love:

Good night, God loves you! :sleep:
Ok Lafftur,

You answer doesn’t address the question I asked. Everyone knows martyrs are special to God but that doesn’t answer the question why they go through that so unnecessarily if OSAS is true.

Jesus said he who endures to the end will be saved. Why if it makes no difference?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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What contex are you talking about that I missed? They came to Jesus saying Lord (acknowledge him as Lord) and he said he didn’t know them. What is the missed contex?

Where did Jesus day to them that those who know him give to others in need and not steal? I mean it’s true but I don’t recall any saying by him those who love him don’t steal.

Since Jesus knew what was in Judas’ heart he knew him. There is more than just him knowing one apparently.
Since God/Jesus knows everyone, saying He does not know them obviously has some other meaning to which you seem oblivious, although I have now explained it to you more than once. Why ask again? If you read further in the same chapter you will see where Jesus speaks about giving to others in relation to those He does know in a salvific sense. It is in Matthew 25. Also, the works we do in loving others (upon which all the laws and prophets hang as per the second part of the greatest commandment) would include not stealing from them. Have you really never line by line and precept by precept put these things together?
 
May 19, 2020
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Since God/Jesus knows everyone, saying He does not know them obviously has some other meaning to which you seem oblivious, although I have now explained it to you more than once. Why ask again? If you read further in the same chapter you will see where Jesus speaks about giving to others in relation to those He does know in a salvific sense. It is in Matthew 25. Also, the works we do in loving others (upon which all the laws and prophets hang as per the second part of the greatest commandment) would include not stealing from them. Have you really never line by line and precept by precept put these things together?


Magneta.......Jesus knows everyone he knows the heart of everyone,......am I right in saying that he knows everyone,but not all that he knows are born again?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Magneta.......Jesus knows everyone he knows the heart of everyone,......am I right in saying that he knows everyone, but not all that he knows are born again?
Only those who by grace through faith in His shed righteous blood are known as His children and are saved... unlike Judas, being known from the beginning not only as one who did not believe, but known also as the one who would betray Jesus. So, yes, you are correct :D
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Only those who by grace through faith in His shed righteous blood are known as His children and are saved... unlike Judas, being known from the beginning not only as one who did not believe, but known also as the one who would betray Jesus. So, yes, you are correct :D
Just to break the ice (literally in South Africa today :) ) here is a fun fact I have shared before.

The difference between Hebrew and Greek names are many times just an S changed to P, like Saul and Paul or a small change somewhere in name.

Now the brother who sold Joseph was Judah and the disciple who sold out Jesus was Judas. Judas is the Greek translation for Judah :)
 
May 23, 2020
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Since God/Jesus knows everyone, saying Hje does not know them obviously has some other meaning to which you seem oblivious, although I have now explained it to you more than once. Why ask again? If you read further in the same chapter you will see where Jesus speaks about giving to others in relation to those He does know in a salvific sense. It is in Matthew 25. Also, the works we do in loving others (upon which all the laws and prophets hang as per the second part of the greatest commandment) would include not stealing from them. Have you really never line by line and precept by precept put these things together?
Since God/Jesus knows everyone, saying He does not know them obviously has some other meaning to which you seem oblivious, although I have now explained it to you more than once. Why ask again? If you read further in the same chapter you will see where Jesus speaks about giving to others in relation to those He does know in a salvific sense.
The passage about Jesus not knowing some is in Matt. chapter 7. Chapter 25 we can assume was taught days if not years later. Chapter 25 is not at all later in chapter 7 as you said above.

Later in chapter 7 he tells of the wise virgins who refuses to give. He talks of the different servants whose gift he gave to one was indeed taken away because he did not do the masters request. Also not giving but taken away. So where in 7 is the passage about giving you speak of?
It is in Matthew 25. Also, the works we do in loving others (upon which all the laws and prophets hang as per the second part of the greatest commandment) would include not stealing from them. Have you really never line by line and precept by precept put these things together?
The second command is to love others as you love yourself. Doesn’t use the word works and isn’t exclusive to giving or works so that has nothing to
do with the verse in 7.

You should avoid using that passage anyway for your position because the whole reads,

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

They called him lord which you insist Judas refused to do and so wasn’t saved. Even worse, it says he who does the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Doesn’t say he who is once saved and therefore always saved.

As I said, your theology requires isolating scripture and pasting them together. One sentence in Matt 7 is pasted to one in Matt 25 to come up with the theology.
 
May 23, 2020
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Just to break the ice (literally in South Africa today :) ) here is a fun fact I have shared before.

The difference between Hebrew and Greek names are many times just an S changed to P, like Saul and Paul or a small change somewhere in name.

Now the brother who sold Joseph was Judah and the disciple who sold out Jesus was Judas. Judas is the Greek translation for Judah :)
You do realize that there were two disciples named Judas right?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
What contex are you talking about that I missed? They came to Jesus saying Lord (acknowledge him as Lord) and he said he didn’t know them. What is the missed contex?

Where did Jesus day to them that those who know him give to others in need and not steal? I mean it’s true but I don’t recall any saying by him those who love him don’t steal.

Since Jesus knew what was in Judas’ heart he knew him. There is more than just him knowing one apparently.
Saying "Lord" does not mean they were saved.

What is most apparent to me by your posts is you refute what have not even comprehended.

What have not yet comprehended... The Gospel.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Ok Lafftur,

You answer doesn’t address the question I asked. Everyone knows martyrs are special to God but that doesn’t answer the question why they go through that so unnecessarily if OSAS is true.

Jesus said he who endures to the end will be saved. Why if it makes no difference?
Jesus said this in relation to the tribulation, in reference to be saved physically from death and entering the kingdom with him

context. Why is this so hard to understand?
 
May 23, 2020
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Jesus said this in relation to the tribulation, in reference to be saved physically from death and entering the kingdom with him

context. Why is this so hard to understand?
So if you endure, that is, don’t die and denying the faith and taking the mark is the best way not to die (“endure” to you) you won’t die (be saved.) If you die, however, like because you refused the mark, well then you won’t be saved cause you didn’t “endure” (die.)

Absurd answer. “If you don’t die you won’t die” essentially.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
So if you endure, that is, don’t die and denying the faith and taking the mark is the best way not to die (“endure” to you) you won’t die (be saved.) If you die, however, like because you refused the mark, well then you won’t be saved cause you didn’t “endure” (die.)

Absurd answer. “If you don’t die you won’t die” essentially.
Do what?

your reasoning to deny what Jesus said is nonsensical.

tribulation is the context.

who would not want to endure that suffering to witness the return of Christ and enter his kingdom with him?
 
May 23, 2020
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Saying "Lord" does not mean they were saved.

What is most apparent to me by your posts is you refute what have not even comprehended.

What have not yet comprehended... The Gospel.
M said Judas wasn’t saved as evidenced by him not calling Jesus Lord.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I know that they were given to Jesus because Jesus said so:
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

This doesn't mean that Judas lost salvation, or being "given and lost", it means that the son of perdition was put into that office, so the scripture may be fulfilled (by someone betraying Jesus).
If I am wrong, and Judas was indeed given to Jesus' hand but lost salvation, it would contradict John 18:9 "That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none."
Amen! John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Amen! John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.
While I was reading this I was thinking how many are in the church today... aaah brother Dan this is a sad post indeed my friend :(