Not By Works

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UnderGrace

Guest
I agree with you in part. Surprise!!

If I love my husband, it's easy for me to do something he requests. If I do not love him, it becomes difficult.
We are follow to the Law of Love...John 13:34 " a new command I give you....

We do this now through the enabling power of the Holy Spirit and because he first loved us...it is not in our own strength and self effort.:)

And since we can never love perfectly like God it not tied to out salvation. Jesus loved perfectly, He is the only person who has been able to fulfill it there fore we live out this new law through Him.

We love each other as a witness and testimony to our faith not to gain salvation



I agree. I live under the N.C. NOT under the O.C.

But what Jesus tell us to do IS THE LAW.

The difference is that we are ABLE to follow it because Jesus died for us and so we love Him for it and the Law written on the heart is easy to follow. If I love my husband, it's easy for me to do something he requests. If I do not love him, it becomes difficult.

THIS IS HE DIFFERENCE.

It's NOT CORRECT to say that we no longer have any Laws.

THIS is what I'm saying.

We still have the Laws. jesus did not abolish them.

BUT, there is a NEW WAY to follow them and to do them.
and when we can't, Jesus COVERS US from the wrath of God.

Jesus is our covering. God sees HIM and not our sinful selves...

Romans 13.14
Galatians 3:27
 
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PHart

Guest
it is faith alone that saves, justifies before God, sanctifies positionally in Christ and seals with the Holy Spirit....end of story....and I have already said that one who is genuinely born again will have at least one piece of fruit or work that identifies the tree....Paul is also clear in Galatians 1 and 3....to say that the works FINISH off the equation of salvation which is begun in the spirit is double cursed, called a gospel of a different kind, has no power to save and all who believe it are called fools and bewitched.....

Your view rejects the fact that the saved can have works of wood, hay and stubble, can be cut lose for eh destruction of the flesh so the spirit will be saved in the day of Christ and denies the fact that not all believers will be faithful in their walk and require the chastening hand of God......

Jesus said the WORK of the FATHER was to BELIEVE.......and again any work produced is the result of the faith and salvation one already possesses...

What produces....the vine or the ROOT....?
WHY does ALL glory go to God dia JESUS?
Who actually does the work...YOU or JESUS through you as a living sacrifice?

The bible is clear...

Grace or WORKS.....it is not and cannot be both....it is one or the other and a café blend of both fails the test Galatians is clear.....faith plus works to finish salvation = false gospel of "heteros" a different KIND than what Paul preached.....
Can you directly quote where I said works earn salvation? You seem to be convinced that's what I'm saying.

Do you know what the 'destruction of the flesh' means? Why does the 'faith alone' person in 1 Corinthians 5 have to have the flesh put to death in order to be saved?
 
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Can you directly quote where I said works earn salvation? You seem to be convinced that's what I'm saying.

Do you know what the 'destruction of the flesh' means? Why does the 'faith alone' person in 1 Corinthians 5 have to have the flesh put to death in order to be saved?
Your verbiage seems to indicate that this is exactly what you believe...The just shall live by faith.....the works are the result....for a saved child of God the works will determine your inheritance....the dividing line if FAITH....even the saved have some works that are not righteous....

The saved are rewarded according to their works

The lost are judged according to their works

and it is clear that two judgments take place....The Bema seat of Christ for reward (the saved) and the great white throne of GOD for the lost......

YOU WORDS that seem to belie that you push a café blend of faith and works for salvation which is false....

you will then live a life of ever increasing obedience to God (aka, love). That's why Christ will be separating the righteous from the unrighteous on the day of judgment on the basis of what each did

Which is why James was not lying when he said faith has to have works attached in order for the believer to be saved on the last day. And it isn't because work has the power to earn a person a place in the kingdom. It's because work is what the faith that justifies all by itself looks like.

Our work will be the evidence God uses to confirm the righteousness we have solely through faith in Christ's forgiveness. But so many 'Christians' are convinced their faith 'alone', minus works of righteousness, on the day of judgment is going to save them.
 
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PHart

Guest
...since we can never love perfectly like God it not tied to out salvation.
What is not perfect is covered by the blood of Christ. What remains is indeed tied to your salvation because it proves that you have the righteousness of Christ that comes solely through faith in the forgiveness of your sins. This is where people stop listening (not you, just speaking in general): It isn't that the love that follows faith plays any part in earning salvation. It's just that the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that obeys, just as Abraham's faith caused him to walk in his footsteps of obedience.

We love each other as a witness and testimony to our faith not to gain salvation
Absolutely true. The problem is so many Christians think that since this is true faith is under no obligation whatsoever to produce any works of righteousness. That's where the church has missed it.....BIG time. They in effect call James a liar when he says that the faith that is alone (has no works attached) can not save them. And, again, not because works somehow play a part in earning salvation, but because the faith that saves all by itself changes the person who has it into a less than perfect, but still righteous, person who is growing up into works of righteousness. But so many are convinced that the very suggestion of some kind of obligation to do work (walk by the Spirit) is to say that salvation is by works. Hardly true. Even Paul said our obligation is to walk by the Spirit:

Romans 8:12-14 NASB
"12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

Is he promoting a works gospel? Of course not. Is he saying the person with the Spirit is under obligation to walk in that Spirit? YES! But so many 'Christians' argue vehemently that we do not have to walk in the Spirit, and that those who don't are sons of God, too, despite the fact that Paul says it is those who are lead of the the Spirit who are the sons of God. And so I must ask the church, "and who is it that is teaching a false gospel?"
 
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PHart

Guest
I understand your confusion. You and countless others have been indoctrinated by the church. You're seeing things in what I'm saying that I'm not saying. This is a very big knot to untie in the church today. That is why I will not go into the ministry.

If you want to hang in here with me and let me separate what you're hearing me say and what I'm actually saying I would like to do that. I will address each and every item if you want me to. But I don't want to waste the time if you are convinced that you can not be convinced otherwise.
Your verbiage seems to indicate that this is exactly what you believe...The just shall live by faith.....the works are the result....for a saved child of God the works will determine your inheritance....the dividing line if FAITH....even the saved have some works that are not righteous....

The saved are rewarded according to their works

The lost are judged according to their works

and it is clear that two judgments take place....The Bema seat of Christ for reward (the saved) and the great white throne of GOD for the lost......

YOU WORDS that seem to belie that you push a café blend of faith and works for salvation which is false....

you will then live a life of ever increasing obedience to God (aka, love). That's why Christ will be separating the righteous from the unrighteous on the day of judgment on the basis of what each did

Which is why James was not lying when he said faith has to have works attached in order for the believer to be saved on the last day. And it isn't because work has the power to earn a person a place in the kingdom. It's because work is what the faith that justifies all by itself looks like.

Our work will be the evidence God uses to confirm the righteousness we have solely through faith in Christ's forgiveness. But so many 'Christians' are convinced their faith 'alone', minus works of righteousness, on the day of judgment is going to save them.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Mr. Hart

Can you define how one walks in the Spirit? That might clear up some confusion over your words. Not that I am confused by your post. Led to do what?

What exactly does this mean?
 
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PHart

Guest
Mr. Hart

Can you define how one walks in the Spirit? That might clear up some confusion over your words. Not that I am confused by your post. Led to do what?

What exactly does this mean?
This is what walking in the Spirit looks like:

Galatians 5:22-25 NASB
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

These are the 'works' that faith produces. Paul himself said the faith that, all by itself, justifies is the faith that loves (love being the summation of all things righteous).

Galatians 5:6 NIV
"
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."


To get to the judgment without the ever increasing works of the fruit of the Spirit is to arrive at the judgment without the faith that justifies all by itself. That is the argument. But it is continually 'heard' as an argument for works being needed to earn one's salvation.
 
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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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I don't see the fruit the same as works. Fruit is the result of our being...being in Him. Our identity.

Works are that which Jesus did. And He said we would do also.

None of this is by our own humanity, but the result of being Spirit. The result of being Spirit is from the works of Jesus which we accept by faith. The Cross and blood, and the resurrection and life. Faith produces a substance into the spiritual realm and the result is in our natural realm. We hear, and we see..then we do.

Anyone can do a natural deed that is good. But, only the Spiritual man can do the deeds of Christ by His power.

All is about the Spiritual man or woman.

We make this so difficult to understand but it's not. The work of Jesus, His whole life...His death and resurrection is what saves us.

Then begins our life as a new being. In Him.
 
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actually your view on cain and abel isn't accurate,for starters nowhere in the bible does it say that cain didn't have faith,nor that cain didn't believe God when instructed to make an offering unto God,if you read closely then you'd know that both believed in God what differed was their choice in offering,for both in their own humble way attempted to please God with a proper offering,both were faithful and true when choosing an offering for God,their views were merely different on the matter,yes cain offered vegetables because it was his profession,and abel slew and offered a new born lamb from his profession,what God felt from both made the difference when choosing which humble offering to accept from "one" of them,for cain offered plenty of vegetables that he worked all year on for this offering but all he had was pride in his heart,where as abel after a full year,God felt that abel was saddened to slay the lamb he brought up and watched over for a year yet despite this he slew the lamb for he knew that he needed to have an offering for God!
there in was the difference both were indeed humble and faithful,but abel's heart won God's favor so God accepted Abel's offering,for he made it clear that he would only choose one offering to accept,this angered cain to where he decided to slay abel only then being unfaithful to God,and when God asked where abel was,cain said "am I my brother's keeper?" there again being unfaithful to God and unbelieving that he would be punished,so please read this part of Genesis again alongside the holy spirit,and you'll know for yourself what is written,not what is assumed,not trying to sound as if you didn't read the bible,just trying to help as God would have me to help you or anyone "learn" God's word,as accurately as I can,hope you'll keep on striving to know more of God's word!
Where does it say in the Bible Abel slew a lamb? The only thing the Bible says is that Abel was a keeper of flocks.

God did not accept Abel offering because Abel was sad, he accepted it because it was the prescribed and correct offering.
 
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Your verbiage seems to indicate that this is exactly what you believe...
A quick observation, this is a bland comment, not respecting what someone actually believes
but just putting someone in a box. I wish through my growth in Christ I could say I stayed in
one place or saw everything clearly.

So if one loves individuals, one has to work with were people are and then see if one can
share for mutual benefit to grow to a new place.

The problem is ofcourse is someone has already arrived, and there is nothing for them
to discover, then you either agree with them or you are wrong. This does make things
simple for them, but it is so blinkered and unreal compared to their actual life history,
but then, it is easier to be dismissive rather than but share and grow through the experience.
 
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This is a strange "take" on Cain and Abel. It's hard to read a wall of text without any paragraphs so I separated out the part in brown - this seems to be your personal view of Cain and Abel's story as there is no scripture stating this belief.

You are entitled to believe what you want about it but I wouldn't say that Katy-follower's "take" on it is wrong.

You seem to have come at it with a humanistic viewpoint and katy-follower through God's view of the need to have blood cover us - in the New Covenant of course the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ takes away the sin of the world. Without the shedding of blood - there is no forgiveness of sins.

God had to have the animals killed in order to provide skins for Adam and Eve when they knew they were naked.

They definitely both had faith - one in what "he has done by his hand" and the other had "faith in the way that God had done for Abel's parents".

We can all certainly agree that we need the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to us as we read the scriptures. They all speak of Him!
Joefizz is also very quiet about it, but he is a hard core KJV onlyist.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Increase your faith...learn what this passage teaches:

Luke 17

7But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? 9Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I understand your confusion. You and countless others have been indoctrinated by the church. You're seeing things in what I'm saying that I'm not saying. This is a very big knot to untie in the church today. That is why I will not go into the ministry.

If you want to hang in here with me and let me separate what you're hearing me say and what I'm actually saying I would like to do that. I will address each and every item if you want me to. But I don't want to waste the time if you are convinced that you can not be convinced otherwise.
The bolded is an assumption on your part and not true at all........and the scriptures are clear.....
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Which is why James was not lying when he said faith has to have works attached in order for the believer to be saved on the last day. And it isn't because work has the power to earn a person a place in the kingdom. It's because work is what the faith that justifies all by itself looks like.

Our work will be the evidence God uses to confirm the righteousness we have solely through faith in Christ's forgiveness. But so many 'Christians' are convinced their faith 'alone', minus works of righteousness, on the day of judgment is going to save them.
The Holy spirit is who will testify that we are His Kids now and upon judement day.

God will help us mature and walk with Him and we may have good works but they are not ours but God's that He created in our hearts and lives to bless others and glorify Him,

Our good works do not "prove" who we are.,, they are not done for us or our salvation but for others and their blessings so that they may be drawn towards God and glorify Him.

We don't need any "evidence" to "prove" to God we are His.He recognizes His children whether we babes or mature in Him.
 
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PHart

Guest
The bolded is an assumption on your part and not true at all........and the scriptures are clear.....
James 2:14 NASB
"14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"

It's a rhetorical question--the answer being, 'no'. James says if someone says they have faith but no works, that faith can not save him. The scriptures are very clear indeed, as you point out. So why does the church disagree with James and says the faith of the person who has no works can save him?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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So if one loves individuals, one has to work with were people are and then see if one can
share for mutual benefit to grow to a new place.

The problem is ofcourse is someone has already arrived, and there is nothing for them
to discover, then you either agree with them or you are wrong. This does make things
simple for them, but it is so blinkered and unreal compared to their actual life history,
but then, it is easier to be dismissive rather than but share and grow through the experience.
I agree our love for each other where each other is should lead us to help each other to help each other grow.

I have used each other 3 times because I want to make the point.

its you me, me you in a place where we realise that neither has fully arrived.

We need to be very careful though.

We because we ourselves have settled on a theological position can actually fall foul of your second paragraph without realising it.

We know the answer, this is the truth to us and so in a sense we have arrived.

At the end of the day the one thing we all have in common (at least I hope we have) faith in Jesus, the son of God who died and rose again, for our sins, to reconcile us to our Father in heaven. Having done the following

Romans 10:5-10
For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands.
But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (to bring Christ down to earth).

And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (to bring Christ back to life again).” In fact, it says,
“The message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart.”


And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

The truth is our calling is firstly that of faith, then given that we want to grow and mature and become more like Jesus.
To me if we say we have the first part but disregard the second then questions need to be asked.

Without faith we cannot please God.

We can do all the works we want but if it's not of faith from our faith it means diddly squat.

That's why the goats are rejected, and Jesus also says

Matthew 7:21-23
I Never Knew You
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

What is the will of the Father

John 6:29
Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”


John 6:39-40
And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”


The key point Jesus makes above is that I never knew you.

They claimed and did things in Jesus name but it meant nothing. They had not placed their faith in Jesus, only in what they did to impress, others and Jesus.

Yet the sheep. Look at what Jesus said.

Matthew 25:35-40
For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’


“Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’


“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’

That's works that arise as a result of faith, knowing Jesus.

We will all get it wrong at times and if anyone wants to tell me that anything different I will disagree with you.
Its not because I have arrived it's because I know I haven't arrived.

To me as a result of faith in Jesus, I decrease and Jesus increases.

Just my simple thoughts
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I remember what Martin Luther said.

to be save you need faith a lone, but faith is not alone.

i believe what he try to say is, faith will produce a fruit.

Save by faith alone, because faith alone will save you, but faith is not alone, because fruit will accompanied faith.
 
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PHart

Guest
Our good works do not "prove" who we are.

We don't need any "evidence" to "prove" to God we are His.He recognizes His children whether we babes or mature in Him.
We know God knows who are his, and who are not. But I hear this argument about works not proving anything about salvation a lot from Christians, yet it is so completely contrary to what the Bible says.

Philippians 2:14-16 NASB
"
14Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life"

1 John 3:7-10 NASB
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

This is why I speak of the church being under the power of an indoctrination. The church is so deep into these common, false teachings associated with the faith vs. works argument, and it's so deep into them it's quite a task to unwind the mess it's tangled up in.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Okay....so untangle and clearly state what it is you believe to be truth about how people are saved?

Is it by faith in Jesus or do you have to add to it before God will accept you as His child?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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James 2:14 NASB
"14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"

It's a rhetorical question--the answer being, 'no'. James says if someone says they have faith but no works, that faith can not save him. The scriptures are very clear indeed, as you point out. So why does the church disagree with James and says the faith of the person who has no works can save him?
The key word in James 2:14 is "says" they have faith but have no works. Where is the demonstrative evidence? Can "that" faith save him? So what kind of faith is "that?" *Empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith which is evidenced by works.

*Also, keep in mind that James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).