Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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I agree with you on some things you say here and I have always respected you and learn a lot from your posts but have to respectfully admit that I am not fully convinced in eternal torment of individuals. The only argument for it that I am still considering to this day, is Matthew 25:46 that you cited. Everything else is very easily refutable. Just because the smoke of their torment rises forever does not mean individuals are tormented forever. Likewise you can also have a fire that keeps going and going always, and smoke rising as a witness, but that doesn't mean you keep burning the same piece of wood.

The main reason why I am not inclined to believe people are tormented forever isn't psychological or unwillingness to accept it if it were the case. But there are many Scriptures which suggest enemies of God will be obliterated - vanish like smoke, blotted out, perished, utterly destroyed, die, found no more. So as the Bible cannot contradict itself, I am still looking for a satisfactory conclusion to connect it all.

Also, Jesus here says this:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Insisting that the soul keeps living through torment, instead of being burnt up and annihilated with torment, totally makes no sense in the context of what Jesus says here it we test run it in the meaning of torment. The sentence would make no sense. Furthermore, since Jesus wanted to make a point to fear God, He would've definitely then used the chance capitalizing on eternal torment here because it's a lot scarier than just dying, and He would not say kill.

And similarly the eternal torment of individual soul idea leads to other nonsensical premises. Take this verse above. Let's ignore the context and assume Jesus meant torment here. So God can torment both body and soul. The physical body goes back to dust. To get a spiritual body, it must have been sown first in the physical through believing in Christ (1 Cor 15). Which body will then be tormented? And so on.
It might help if we viewed death the way it is set forth in scripture....humanity views it incorrectly....the word death literally equates to separation...

Soul separated from the body = dead

Eternal death <--separated from God

Why can we have no problem seeing ETERNAL LIFE, but ETERNAL DEATH is so hard to grasp.
 
Oct 25, 2014
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It might help if we viewed death the way it is set forth in scripture....humanity views it incorrectly....the word death literally equates to separation...

Soul separated from the body = dead

Eternal death <--separated from God

Why can we have no problem seeing ETERNAL LIFE, but ETERNAL DEATH is so hard to grasp.
Thank you for your kind input.
I will have this insight in mind as I am looking for the full understanding and meditating on this.
There was a testimony video of a woman who died and was dead and then came back to life. She ended up in hell, being an unbeliever at that point, and the words she described it with was, that she "became death". While this isn't on the same level as what the Bible says, something about this rang true to me so I've always kept it in the back of my mind when seeking to understand what happens with people in hell...
 
Oct 25, 2014
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Thank you for your kind input.
I will have this insight in mind as I am looking for the full understanding and meditating on this.
There was a testimony video of a woman who died and was dead and then came back to life. She ended up in hell, being an unbeliever at that point, and the words she described it with was, that she "became death". While this isn't on the same level as what the Bible says, something about this rang true to me so I've always kept it in the back of my mind when seeking to understand what happens with people in hell...
@dcontroversal
The part when she talks about hell is at about 3:40-8:45
I take it with a grain of salt, but an interesting testimony
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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That tells me that paradise is not heaven :)



NO, it is HEAVEN, and I can Prove It.


Luke 23:43 (HCSB)
43 And He said to him, I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:2-6 (HCSB)
2 I know a man in Christ who was caught up into the third heaven 14 years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know, God knows.
3 I know that this man—whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know, God knows—
4 was caught up into paradise. He heard inexpressible words, which a man is not allowed to speak.
5 I will boast about this person, but not about myself, except of my weaknesses.
6 For if I want to boast, I will not be a fool, because I will be telling the truth. But I will spare you, so that no one can credit me with something beyond what he sees in me or hears from me,

There are Three different places that in our BIBLES are called HEAVEN.

First Place called Heaven is where the Birds sore, our Atmosphere.

Genesis 1:20 (ASV)
20 And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The Second Heaven the Bible talks about is the STARS of Heaven.

Genesis 22:17 (NASB)
17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.

The Third Heaven is the Eternal Throne Room in HEAVEN.

Matthew 5:34 (HCSB)
34 But I tell you, don’t take an oath at all: either by heaven, because it is God’s throne;
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Yep, it is very clear to me that the both of you are covenant theologians.

So naturally, you will disagree with the dispensationalist interpretation of scriptures.
No, what we disagree with is your inept interpretation of scripture...you know the one....the one with 37 flavors of salvation, 2 to 6 gospel messages and a partridge in a pear tree.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Thank you for your kind input.
I will have this insight in mind as I am looking for the full understanding and meditating on this.
There was a testimony video of a woman who died and was dead and then came back to life. She ended up in hell, being an unbeliever at that point, and the words she described it with was, that she "became death". While this isn't on the same level as what the Bible says, something about this rang true to me so I've always kept it in the back of my mind when seeking to understand what happens with people in hell...
Yeah.....I honestly would not believe anyone saying they died and went to hell and came back.......the scriptures applied to Jesus are indicative of the grave and not hell proper......I do believe the bible is clear on hell and the lake of fire and both represent a conscience state of torment for those that die enemies of God as lost men and women......
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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No, what we disagree with is your inept interpretation of scripture...you know the one....the one with 37 flavors of salvation, 2 to 6 gospel messages and a partridge in a pear tree.....
Likewise, I would regard your covenant theology view of the scripture inept too.

Covenant theologians don't read scripture literally, and instead believe that everyone, from OT to NT, put their faith in Jesus's death on the cross for them.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Likewise, I would regard your covenant theology view of the scripture inept too.

Covenant theologians don't read scripture literally, and instead believe that everyone, from OT to NT, put their faith in Jesus's death on the cross for them.
Yawn.....try again pal.....wrong answer!

You must really be obstinate or dense when it comes to the truth, Jesus, salvation and faith...

Jesus said....

Search the scriptures, for they are they that TESTIFY OF ME.

and

In the VOLUME OF THE BOOK is is written of ME.

The SAME faith that SAVED ME also SAVED ABRAHAM, DAVID, JOSIAH, DANIEL and others.....and from front to back the whole bible points to Christ and the resurrection from the dead!
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Yawn.....try again pal.....wrong answer!

You must really be obstinate or dense when it comes to the truth, Jesus, salvation and faith...

Jesus said....

Search the scriptures, for they are they that TESTIFY OF ME.

and

In the VOLUME OF THE BOOK is is written of ME.

The SAME faith that SAVED ME also SAVED ABRAHAM, DAVID, JOSIAH, DANIEL and others.....and from front to back the whole bible points to Christ and the resurrection from the dead!
True the whole bible is about Jesus, but that has nothing to do with how the ot saints put their faith in God. You are changing the subject.
 
Aug 1, 2020
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The statement is in the modifier. I do not deny Jesus died for our sins, nor that He bore our sins. What I deny is that the bearing of sins was the perfectly just punishment demanded by God for our sin and that God's justice is satisfied in the cross.

It is the theological baggage I take issue with, not the actual Biblical statements.
NIV 1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Clearly states that Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
It's not about doing a certain amount of repenting to be close enough to God,
NASB Ephesians 2:8 8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

NIV John 5:24 24"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
 
Apr 2, 2020
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NIV 1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Clearly states that Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
It's not about doing a certain amount of repenting to be close enough to God,
NASB Ephesians 2:8 8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

NIV John 5:24 24"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
Yes, the atoning sacrifice. The theology that goes with modern penal substitution and teaches "satisfaction" is an invention of Anselm of Canterbury and nothing more.

The idea that Jesus was sacrificed to satisfy God's wrath against sin is a fully pagan idea not in line with the Biblical picture of atonement. God's just wrath against sin is not satisfied in the injust death of the Innocent. Nor is retribution the primary mark of God's justice.

While wrath is an element of atonement, it is not the major impediment. The major impediment is that sin is a persistent destructive force like cancer and grows and spreads. Jesus atoned and healed us.

So again, my issue is not with Biblical statements about Jesus' atoning sacrifice but with the theology of satisfaction.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Likewise, I would regard your covenant theology view of the scripture inept too.

Covenant theologians don't read scripture literally, and instead believe that everyone, from OT to NT, put their faith in Jesus's death on the cross for them.

There is a TERM, that I have NEVER heard before, covenant theology. Now if you mean by that TERM, EXACTLY what I will write in the following POST, I will accept it as a BADGE OF HONOR AND TRUTH. That is GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, and HE SAVES everyone from ADAM on to the Last Christian SAVED, in the EXACT SAME WAY, which is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.


If you can find ONE PERSON in the BIBLE that GOD SAVED like that, then you will know HOW GOD SAVES EVERYONE?

Romans 4:3-6 (ESV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:


Old Testament Saints, were SAVED by Believing GOD would send a Messiah to pay for their SINS.

New Testament Saints, are SAVED by Believing GOD DID Send a Messiah to Pay for their SINS.



That SAVING FAITH was Put into our HEART by the Holy Spirit, not something we thought up intellectually,
so we do not take CREDIT FOR IT.

It is the exact same FAITH OF ABRAHAM, period !


Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
4,672
781
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There is a TERM, that I have NEVER heard before, covenant theology. Now if you mean by that TERM, EXACTLY what I will write in the following POST, I will accept it as a BADGE OF HONOR AND TRUTH. That is GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, and HE SAVES everyone from ADAM on to the Last Christian SAVED, in the EXACT SAME WAY, which is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.


If you can find ONE PERSON in the BIBLE that GOD SAVED like that, then you will know HOW GOD SAVES EVERYONE?

Romans 4:3-6 (ESV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:


Old Testament Saints, were SAVED by Believing GOD would send a Messiah to pay for their SINS.

New Testament Saints, are SAVED by Believing GOD DID Send a Messiah to Pay for their SINS.



That SAVING FAITH was Put into our HEART by the Holy Spirit, not something we thought up intellectually,
so we do not take CREDIT FOR IT.

It is the exact same FAITH OF ABRAHAM, period !


Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.
Google that term, it’s a well known framework for bible interpretation
 
Oct 25, 2014
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Yeah.....I honestly would not believe anyone saying they died and went to hell and came back.......the scriptures applied to Jesus are indicative of the grave and not hell proper......I do believe the bible is clear on hell and the lake of fire and both represent a conscience state of torment for those that die enemies of God as lost men and women......
I was not convinced myself if it really happened or she invented it, yes it was doubtful that she got a way out. Maybe it was more like a vision in spirit and she wasn't actually there. Or she fabricated it entirely. Who knows. I just thought it was an interesting video because of what she said about "becoming death" and I guess I was trying to get more feedback on it from you guys. Either way I wouldn't have taken someone's vision to the same level as Scripture unless it's fully confirmed by it.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Well we do not use it in the Conservative Evangelical Type of Churches. And what I Posted is what we believe.
What you have posted, in your previous post is the “covenant of grace” that covenant theology used
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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This is a video we sang this morning in Church.
And it is based on these kind of Verses, in our Bibles:

Romans 16:24-27 (NKJV)
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Acts 4:12 (HCSB)
12 There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people, and we must be saved by it.”