Not By Works

ForestGreenCook · Dec 11, 2020

VCO said:

The church, that I am a deacon of, goes by the name; Primitive Baptist.

If you read on down to the 15th verse, Jesus tells, those that he has written this letter to, to love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. This, evidently, could not be the same world as the world in John 3:16 that he said he loved. This is only one letter that John wrote, "not for ours only" applies to the membership of many other churches that John and the other apostles had written to. The world of believers only.

If the scriptures do not harmonize, the fault lies in them being interpreted wrongly.

ForestGreenCook · Dec 11, 2020

VCO said:

View attachment 223464

QUOTE:
John adds that He is the satisfying sacrifice not for our sins only, but also for the whole world. This does not mean that the whole world is saved. Rather it means that the work of the Lord Jesus is sufficient in value to save all the world, but it is only efficient to save those who actually put their trust in Him.
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding. :END QUOTE

1 John 2:2 (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (ASV)
2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NKJV)
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NASB)
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (HCSB)
2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NRSV)
2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (ESV)
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NCV)
2 He is the way our sins are taken away, and not only our sins but the sins of all people.
1 John 2:2 (NJB)
2 He is the sacrifice to expiate our sins, and not only ours, but also those of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (YLT)
2 and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
1 John 2:2 (GW)
2 He is the payment for our sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.

NOW THERE ARE 12 TRANSLATION TEAMS THAT SAID HIS SACRIFICE WAS SUFFICEINT TO APPLY TO EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.

I THINK HE MEANT IT LITERALLY MEANS THE WHOLE WORLD.

I ask you again, what Denomination do you come from ? ? ?

Sometime in the life of God's elect, God quickens them to a new spiritual life, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and teaches them to believe. The natural, unregenerate, man, as indicated in 1 Cor 2:14, will never repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern, and thinks it to be foolishness. The only heart that is receptive to having their conscience pricked is the new heart of flesh that God has exchanged from a heart of stone during the process of being born again.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 11, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

This thought has people made alive in sin. This goes against Gods perfect justice, who declair the penalty fo sin is death,

the penalty must be removed before the one dead in sin could be made alive, or God has gone against his own decree

ForestGreenCook · Dec 11, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the elect on the cross, and secured their eternal inheritance. Jesus said that there would be no more sacrifice for sins.

VCO · Dec 11, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

The church, that I am a deacon of, goes by the name; Primitive Baptist.

If you read on down to the 15th verse, Jesus tells, those that he has written this letter to, to love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. This, evidently, could not be the same world as the world in John 3:16 that he said he loved. This is only one letter that John wrote, "not for ours only" applies to the membership of many other churches that John and the other apostles had written to. The world of believers only.

If the scriptures do not harmonize, the fault lies in them being interpreted wrongly.

Wow, that is not typical Baptist theology. You got your beliefs, and a number of the certainly are Different than mine.

VCO · Dec 12, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

Is that what YOU believe BORN AGAIN is ? ? ?

Here is Mine:

When the HOLY SPIRIT knows the Heart (Human Spirit) is ready to receive the LORD, HE WILL ENTER the Heart of Man.
In that moment HE crushes that Pride of Life, with total CONVICTION and Guilt clean out your selfish heart.
In wept like a for three hours, Pleaded with HIM FOR FORGIVINESS for most of that time, as Guilt for Sin overwhelmed me.
Until total Peace with GOD came in.
HE, the Holy Spirit, Baptized (Immersed) my human Spirit into the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
and HE gave me the awareness of the mind of Christ in my Heart (Human Spirit).
HE took up permanent residence in my HEART, making me totally aware that HE FORGAVE ALL MY SINS.
HE poured GOD's AGAPE LOVE directly into my HEART, (Human Spirit), and GAVE IT ETERNAL LIFE.
HE became my TEACHER! And HE gave ME a gift, and my GIFT WAS TOTAL TRUST IN JESUS CHRIST.

After my initial Conviction of SIN, the rest of what I wrote, only took seconds. I am 100% SURE that was BORN AGAIN and Conversion!

I have a question? Do you Believe in the HOLY TRINITY ? ? ?

ForestGreenCook · Dec 12, 2020

VCO said:

Yes I do believe in the Holy trinity, each one of the three, having a different function. God is the creator, Jesus is the redeemer, the Holy Ghost is the revelator.

You believe that being born again, and conversion are one in the same, and I believe that the scriptures teach that being born again is given totally by God's sovereign grace, without any effort on man's part. Eph 2 states that we are dead (spiritually), with a heart of stone that can not be pricked to be ready to receive the Lord. The only heart that is ready to receive the Lord is the fleshy heart that can be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law, and that heart is exchanged in the process of being born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Ezek 11:19, And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you, and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh (soft heart that can be pricked).

In this process of being born again, God gets all of the credit for their new birth, and man gets no credit. That's why God's grace in said to be a free gift.

I believe that Paul's experience on the road to Damascus was his conversion, and his being born again was previous to that event. One evidence is the question that Jesus ask him "why do you kick against the pricks". I believe the scriptures to teach that only the new regenerated heart of flesh can be pricked to feel spiritual guilt. Secondly, I believe the evidence that Paul persecuted the church was "in all good conscience" identifies him as being born again previously.

ForestGreenCook · Dec 12, 2020

VCO said:

I try in my studies to follow the fact that all scriptures must harmonize or I am interpreting them wrongly.

VCO · Dec 12, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

I thank GOD, that you believe in the HOLY TRINITY. I wouldn't say that GOD is the Creator though. HE WILLED CREATION, and JESUS DID IT. The Inmates had an expression, that is more appropriate: GOD IS THE SUPREME SHOTCALLER.

Colossians 1:15-20 (HCSB)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile everything to Himself by making peace through the blood of His cross— whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Romans 1:20-22 (HCSB)
20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
21 For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude {for HIS death on the CROSS}. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools

1 John 2:23 (NKJV)
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

That is the Problem is REJECTING JESUS AS GOD, or show gratitude, YOU DO NOT EVEN HAVE THE FATHER in your Heart.

Here is how I would put this same explanation of the Trinity.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are coequally GOD HIMSELF.
The difference in FUNCTION IS:
The Father is the Supreme Shotcaller.
The Son does the WILL of the Father.
The Holy Spirit, enables us to do the Will of the Father and the Son.

VCO · Dec 12, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

Some You have interpreted WRONGLY, despite following that rule, in my opinion.

ForestGreenCook · Dec 12, 2020

VCO said:

I have no problem with Jesus as the creator, as long as the three are one.

I do interpret, Romans 1:18-20, differently than you in that these verses are referencing born again children of God, and not the unregenerate.

According to 1 Cor 2:14's definition of the unregenerate man, That which may be known of God is not manifest in them; for God did not show it unto them. They cannot discern the spiritual things of God, and thinks them to be foolishness. The only way that a person can understand the things of the Spirit is to be born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The remainder of Chapter 1 gives us an example of just how depraved a regenerated person can become by yielding themselves to the temptation of the things of the world. By not following the commandments of God, they lose their fellowship with God, until they repent, but they never lose their eternal inheritance.

This is why Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep of the household of Israel, surname Jacob.

God's called preachers are instructed to preach to the regenerate, although we are not to try to decide who the regenerate are, Acts 2:46-47, And they (baptised believers) continued daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God, and having favour with all the people, and "the Lord added" to the church daily such as should be saved. Preachers and teachers do not add to the church, God does.

ForestGreenCook · Dec 12, 2020

VCO said:

The biggest majority of the religious world does not agree with the doctrine that I claim, but so it was, with the doctrine that Jesus taught in his day, many therefore of his disciples, when they heard this, said, this is an hard saying, who can hear it. John 6:60.

ForestGreenCook · Dec 12, 2020

VCO said:

View attachment 223494

I thank GOD, that you believe in the HOLY TRINITY. I wouldn't say that GOD is the Creator though. HE WILLED CREATION, and JESUS DID IT. The Inmates had an expression, that is more appropriate: GOD IS THE SUPREME SHOTCALLER.

Colossians 1:15-20 (HCSB)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile everything to Himself by making peace through the blood of His cross— whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Romans 1:20-22 (HCSB)
20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
21 For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude {for HIS death on the CROSS}. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools

1 John 2:23 (NKJV)
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

That is the Problem is REJECTING JESUS AS GOD, or show gratitude, YOU DO NOT EVEN HAVE THE FATHER in your Heart.

Here is how I would put this same explanation of the Trinity.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are coequally GOD HIMSELF.
The difference in FUNCTION IS:
The Father is the Supreme Shotcaller.
The Son does the WILL of the Father.
The Holy Spirit, enables us to do the Will of the Father and the Son.

I hope that your statement "YOU DO NOT EVEN HAVE THE FATHER in your heart" is not directed to me, if so, I have misjudged your willingness to discuss the scriptures in a kind way.

VCO · Dec 12, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

No that was not directed at you. You seem to be Christian, despite some strange beliefs. Like the one I pointed out, Isaiah 28:9-10, is TOTALLY off the wall, in my opinion. I think your personal THEORY has led you down some Strange paths. I personally think the BIBLE should be Interpreted LITERALLY, unless it is an obvious symbolism. For example:

Dr. Walter Martin, once had an interview that ended with questions from the audience, and a Mormon Missionary got up and said it sounds like you believe every verse in the BIBLE should be taken literally? Dr. Walter Martin, said "Of course not, only the verses that have obvious symbolism, should not be taken Literally, like this Verse:"

Deuteronomy 4:24 (HCSB)
24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Dr. Martin then said, "That does not mean that GOD is literally a BLAST FURNACE."

I take a GREAT DEAL of VERSES absolutely LITERALY, whereas YOU say that is a Mystery, giving you permission to Interperate those verses contrary to Literally. You can find an interpretation of two different verses, that seem to contradict each other, IF YOU FIRST ADMIT YOU MADE AN ERROR IN INTERPRETATION OF ONE OR BOTH VERSES. THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTION IN MY BIBLE WHATSOEVER, AND I BELIEVE MOST OF THE BIBLE SHOULD BE TRANSLATED LITERALLY.

For Example. One time on the Yard, I had a Muslim ask to speak to me, and He quoted three different verses that had the Number of Israelites in that quote, in all three verses, about the same period of time, and ALL THREE WERE DIFFERENT numbers. HE INSISTED THE BIBLE WAS FULL OF ERRORS and Should not be counted as TRUTH. He thought he had me, but I had studied that several months before. The Answer to that SUPPOSED riddle, lies in understanding the Jewish history. There are THREE DIFFERENT Numbering systems in ISRAEL.

One COUNTED MEN ONLY, and not boys.

Another COUNTED ALL MEN AND BOYS.

And the Third COUNTED the entire Family: MEN, Boys, Women, and Girls.

The supposed contradiction DISAPPEARED with that historical input. The three verses he quoted, were not a Contradiction, but the person pushing the Pen, used a different Numbering System.

VCO · Dec 13, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

I read your Churches Statement of Faith. I can agree with about 3/4th of it.

I do not agree with:
No musical instruments, sound like you borrowed that from the Church of Christ. So I do not agree with that.
Sunday School isn't mentioned in the Bible, therefore Primitive Baptists reject it, so I disagree with that.
* * * Lots of things were not mentioned in the BIBLE, so that EXCUSE to make it a Doctrine is inexcusable in my opinion.
* * * ONE of Adams first Commandments was to NAME THE ANIMALS, since all the animals are not NAMED in the BIBLE,
* * * that does not means it is FORBIDDEN to use that NAME. For Your information, CHURCH is NOT NAMED IN THE BIBLE.
* * * That word that Jesus USED and the Apostles USED wand NOT CHURCH, it was "Assembly", the Same thing HE called
* * * Israel true Believers. Therefore JUST Because it is not named in the BIBLE, and Adam was told by GOD to name the
* * * Animals, Things that the REST of the Human Race Named is also, barring Vulgarity, is fine by GOD HIMSELF. Here is a
* * * Little Example the Not Found in the BIBLE, and BIBLE ITSELF is not found in any verse of the BIBLE. Car, Airplane,
* * * Narthex, Pew, Restrooms, Computers, EVEN Primitive is NOT FOUND IN AN VERSE, so Sunday School has to be acceptable.
Your Doctrine, the Bible forbids images of God. Christ is the Son of God, is God, and pictures or paintings of him are idols. You forgot one thing that makes it an IDOL. You have to BOW DOWN TO IT, AS IF THE OBJECT IS GOD, so you are misusing the word IDOL.

Your theology makes GOD guilty of promoting idolatry, IF YOUR THEOLATRY WAS TRUE.

Exodus 25:16-19 (NRSV)
16 You shall put into the ark the covenant that I shall give you.
17 Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its width.
18 You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 Make one cherub at the one end, and one cherub at the other; of one piece with the mercy seat you shall make the cherubim at its two ends.

Exodus 20:4-5 (KJV)
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: {FOR THE PURPOSE OF BOWING DOWN TO THEM.}
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Matthew 16:18 (ASV)
18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Is that what JESUS ACTUALLY SAID ? ? ? NO!

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

QUOTE:
Greek Strong's Number: 1577
Greek Word: ἐκκλησία
Transliteration: ekklēsia
Phonetic Pronunciation:

ek-klay-see'-ah
Root: from a compound of <G1537> and a derivative of <G2564>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 3:501,394
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Assembly, Congregation
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
:END QUOTE.

No offense brother, but I wanted you to see what Exactly I disagree with in your Doctrinal Statement.

ForestGreenCook · Dec 13, 2020

VCO said:

View attachment 223511

I read your Churches Statement of Faith. I can agree with about 3/4th of it.

I do not agree with:
No musical instruments, sound like you borrowed that from the Church of Christ. So I do not agree with that.
Sunday School isn't mentioned in the Bible, therefore Primitive Baptists reject it, so I disagree with that.
* * * Lots of things were not mentioned in the BIBLE, so that EXCUSE to make it a Doctrine is inexcusable in my opinion.
* * * ONE of Adams first Commandments was to NAME THE ANIMALS, since all the animals are not NAMED in the BIBLE,
* * * that does not means it is FORBIDDEN to use that NAME. For Your information, CHURCH is NOT NAMED IN THE BIBLE.
* * * That word that Jesus USED and the Apostles USED wand NOT CHURCH, it was "Assembly", the Same thing HE called
* * * Israel true Believers. Therefore JUST Because it is not named in the BIBLE, and Adam was told by GOD to name the
* * * Animals, Things that the REST of the Human Race Named is also, barring Vulgarity, is fine by GOD HIMSELF. Here is a
* * * Little Example the Not Found in the BIBLE, and BIBLE ITSELF is not found in any verse of the BIBLE. Car, Airplane,
* * * Narthex, Pew, Restrooms, Computers, EVEN Primitive is NOT FOUND IN AN VERSE, so Sunday School has to be acceptable.
Your Doctrine, the Bible forbids images of God. Christ is the Son of God, is God, and pictures or paintings of him are idols. You forgot one thing that makes it an IDOL. You have to BOW DOWN TO IT, AS IF THE OBJECT IS GOD, so you are misusing the word IDOL.

Your theology makes GOD guilty of promoting idolatry, IF YOUR THEOLATRY WAS TRUE.

Exodus 25:16-19 (NRSV)
16 You shall put into the ark the covenant that I shall give you.
17 Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its width.
18 You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 Make one cherub at the one end, and one cherub at the other; of one piece with the mercy seat you shall make the cherubim at its two ends.

Exodus 20:4-5 (KJV)
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: {FOR THE PURPOSE OF BOWING DOWN TO THEM.}
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Matthew 16:18 (ASV)
18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Is that what JESUS ACTUALLY SAID ? ? ? NO!

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

QUOTE:
Greek Strong's Number: 1577
Greek Word: ἐκκλησία
Transliteration: ekklēsia
Phonetic Pronunciation:

ek-klay-see'-ah
Root: from a compound of <G1537> and a derivative of <G2564>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 3:501,394
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Assembly, Congregation
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
:END QUOTE.

No offense brother, but I wanted you to see what Exactly I disagree with in your Doctrinal Statement.

I am leaving on a week vacation to Branson, Mo. Will catch up with you when I get back. I enjoy our discussions.

VCO · Dec 13, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

You do know it SNOWS in Branson, Mo. I am in Lincoln, Ne. and it we got 3 inches of snow with BITTER COLD.

ForestGreenCook · Dec 13, 2020

VCO said:

I know. My kids and grand kids have their Christmas celebration combined with Thanksgiving day at my house, so they can have their individual Christmas with themselves, so that leaves my wife Ruthie and I free to entertain ourselves in December. We booked a couple of dinner shows.

VCO · Dec 14, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

I know. My kids and grand kids have their Christmas celebration combined with Thanksgiving day at my house, so they can have their individual Christmas with themselves, so that leaves my wife Ruthie and I free to entertain ourselves in December. We booked a couple of dinner shows.

Have fun.

VCO · Dec 20, 2020

My Pastor Brought Up an interesting point about the Rapture this morning. For People who do not want to agree with the PRE-TRIB Rapture, genuinely hearing this is an undeniable proof Text that it has to be PRE-TRIB.

Daniel 9:26-27 (HCSB)
26 After {indicating a time period unknown to people in the Old Testament} those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off {Killed} and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.
27 He {Two Dictators from the Same Empire, controlled by the Same Evil Spirit} will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. {The later is known as the Antichrist, AND THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF THE 70th Week of Daniel.} And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

There is the unkown Church Age in that single word After. Notice the END of the Church-Age happens on or before the Signing of the the Peace Treaty with Israel, which is the 70th Week of Daniel. Therefore Israel was totally unaware of the Church-Age, unless someone by the Holy Spirit was made aware of it.

Not By Works

Well-known member

Well-known member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member