Not By Works

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ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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But without it…would Jesus confess you to His Father?
I think it just depends. Jesus said in Matthew 10:32: "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven." But that leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

Walking with God is a series of tests. James 1:2-3 says: "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness." Of course it's by faith ultimately we're saved; however, God tests our hearts. If our habit is to not confess Him, or to not obey Him on anything when we know we should; if we say in our heart: "I have faith, that's enough, no need to actually obey, that would just be works anyway and everyone knows you're not saved by works," God might begin to say to Himself: "Is this person actually with me or not?"

People are looking for a cut and dried formula for salvation; but salvation isn't a formula, it's a relationship with God through the Lord Jesus.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I ," God might begin to say to Himself: "Is this person actually with me or not?"
Do we really think God is incapable of knowing our hearts?

Why do we lower God down to human nature. And not give him the credit he is due.

As David said, You KNEW me before my mothers womb..

God knows. He knew before time began, thats why he predestined us to be conformed to his image. Based on his knowledge.
 
Jan 9, 2014
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No, it is a work of God we believe, confession comes through belief
Confession comes through belief? What are you saying? That when we believe, that actually constitutes a confession? Rom 10. “10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
That does not sound like what you are saying. I trust the scripture.
 
Jan 9, 2014
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I think it just depends. Jesus said in Matthew 10:32: "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven." But that leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

Walking with God is a series of tests. James 1:2-3 says: "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness." Of course it's by faith ultimately we're saved; however, God tests our hearts. If our habit is to not confess Him, or to not obey Him on anything when we know we should; if we say in our heart: "I have faith, that's enough, no need to actually obey, that would just be works anyway and everyone knows you're not saved by works," God might begin to say to Himself: "Is this person actually with me or not?"

People are looking for a cut and dried formula for salvation; but salvation isn't a formula, it's a relationship with God through the Lord Jesus.
I trust Jesus. I confess that He is the Messiah, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
However, you seem to speak like a typical Calvinist, that Jesus really meant to say you don’t really have to use your voice to confess. Bunk.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
1,272
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Confession comes through belief? What are you saying? That when we believe, that actually constitutes a confession? Rom 10. “10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
That does not sound like what you are saying. I trust the scripture.
You're trying to make a formula out that one verse, which is very common. If you believe in formulas and they get you closer to God, by all means don't let me interfere. It's not worth debating for me.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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I trust Jesus. I confess that He is the Messiah, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
However, you seem to speak like a typical Calvinist, that Jesus really meant to say you don’t really have to use your voice to confess. Bunk.
Whatever.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Confession comes through belief? What are you saying? That when we believe, that actually constitutes a confession? Rom 10. “10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
That does not sound like what you are saying. I trust the scripture.
Are you saying we can confess and not believe?

I am not going to confess God unless I first repent, and come to faith in God.

You don;t confess is someone you do not trust.

Where does that trust come from?

Jesus said it is the work of God we believe in the one he sent. I trust jesus

Paul said we are saved By Grace through Faith. Not of works. Lest anyone shuld boast.

I ask you. Can you boast of saving yourself because you believe.

Paul also said in Romans 4. If abraham was found by works, he has something to boast about. But not before God. For what does the scripture say, abraham believed God

Again, Salvation is a gift. You work for a reward or wage. You do not work for a gift. You recieve a gift. In faith, you recieve the gift.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I trust Jesus. I confess that He is the Messiah, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
However, you seem to speak like a typical Calvinist, that Jesus really meant to say you don’t really have to use your voice to confess. Bunk.
He is by no means a calvinist. He would more resemble an arminian. But I do not think he is even arminian.
 
Jan 9, 2014
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Are you saying we can confess and not believe?

I am not going to confess God unless I first repent, and come to faith in God.

You don;t confess is someone you do not trust.

Where does that trust come from?

Jesus said it is the work of God we believe in the one he sent. I trust jesus

Paul said we are saved By Grace through Faith. Not of works. Lest anyone shuld boast.

I ask you. Can you boast of saving yourself because you believe.

Paul also said in Romans 4. If abraham was found by works, he has something to boast about. But not before God. For what does the scripture say, abraham believed God

Again, Salvation is a gift. You work for a reward or wage. You do not work for a gift. You recieve a gift. In faith, you recieve the gift.
You are defending a doctrine and evading the truth. In Jn 6, Jesus is not saying that belief is God’s work and therefore you only believe if God makes you a believer. They asked Jesus what work of God they could do, meaning what sacrifice can we perform, what good deed can we do? Jesus flat told them that if they believed in Him as God’s Son that was the work they could do.
Otherwise, what are you saying? That a person cannot have faith in Jesus unless God miraculously instlls faith in Him? I totally, completely disagree with that interpretation.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Can faith save without works ?

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?


Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-21, 23-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Faith that doesn’t change us tangibly isn’t what the gospel is about there’s a reason Paul said this

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭

because if you put a group of believers together and no one is insisting “ good works have nothing to do with anything “ the one constantly affirming what Paul said there in that faithful saying , is going to change us from those insisting what we do isn’t important to those like this

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we reject the inclusion of our works and insist there’s nothing to see there well Never become those zealous of good works and that’s why he suffered and died to redeem us from sin and create someone better in deed and truth


When we say we’re saved by grace not by works the next line says we are created in Christ for good works


“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We want to cut the part out about us walking in good works ordained of the gospel but then we’re like empty vessels or a body without a spirit

You got it all wrong: Faith is a RESULT of GENUINE SALVATION. It WILL produce GOOD WORKS, but good works NEVER WILL IT PRODUCE SALVATION. You have got the Cart ahead of the Horse . . . Salvation. Look at the verses I just posted.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

2 Timothy 1:18 (NIV)
18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

How do I know Salvation comes to them that KNOW HIM, BEFORE they do their first DEED, motivated out of PURE LOVE.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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You are defending a doctrine and evading the truth. In Jn 6, Jesus is not saying that belief is God’s work and therefore you only believe if God makes you a believer. They asked Jesus what work of God they could do, meaning what sacrifice can we perform, what good deed can we do? Jesus flat told them that if they believed in Him as God’s Son that was the work they could do.
Otherwise, what are you saying? That a person cannot have faith in Jesus unless God miraculously instlls faith in Him? I totally, completely disagree with that interpretation.
Sorry, if you're looking for someone to argue with it ain't me. Hope you have a blessed day.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You are defending a doctrine and evading the truth. In Jn 6, Jesus is not saying that belief is God’s work and therefore you only believe if God makes you a believer.
I never said or even hinted at anything like this. please take your anti calvinist blinders off. And try to listen to what people are trying to tell you.
They asked Jesus what work of God they could do, meaning what sacrifice can we perform, what good deed can we do? Jesus flat told them that if they believed in Him as God’s Son that was the work they could do.
Otherwise, what are you saying? That a person cannot have faith in Jesus unless God miraculously instlls faith in Him? I totally, completely disagree with that interpretation.
your wrong. Jesus told them it is the work of God they believe, it is god who teaches, it is god who convicts, who helps us understand who gives us the ability to chose to say yes God I trust you, or no God, I reject you
again, get off your anti calvinist rant, I am not calvinist, most people here are not, you will never understand me if you try to read my words through anti calvinist glasses, and that will prevent you from hearing a word I say, because you will think i am saying something I am not
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You got it all wrong: Faith is a RESULT of GENUINE SALVATION. It WILL produce GOOD WORKS, but good works NEVER WILL IT PRODUCE SALVATION. You have got the Cart ahead of the Horse . . . Salvation. Look at the verses I just posted.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

2 Timothy 1:18 (NIV)
18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

How do I know Salvation comes to them that KNOW HIM, BEFORE they do their first DEED, motivated out of PURE LOVE.
Good to see you brother
 
Jan 9, 2014
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I never said or even hinted at anything like this. please take your anti calvinist blinders off. And try to listen to what people are trying to tell you.

your wrong. Jesus told them it is the work of God they believe, it is god who teaches, it is god who convicts, who helps us understand who gives us the ability to chose to say yes God I trust you, or no God, I reject you
again, get off your anti calvinist rant, I am not calvinist, most people here are not, you will never understand me if you try to read my words through anti calvinist glasses, and that will prevent you from hearing a word I say, because you will think i am saying something I am not
Because you are making a Calvinist, faith only, argument. Confession is made unto salvation. Period.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Because you are making a Calvinist, faith only, argument. Confession is made unto salvation. Period.
Faith only is not calvinist, its the word of God

Once again, If your going to read everyone through calvinist glasses. Your never going to get anywhere, You called a legalist a calvinist. And you have misrepresented what I have been saying by trying to place me under calvinistic beliefs, when I am not a calvinist buy any mans.

Now if you want to talk. Let’s talk. If your going to continue this nonsense, You will never get anywhere in here. And you will cause people to ignore you.

You have totally ignored my scripture about faith alone. You misrepresented my about John 6, and when I correc ted you. You never even attempted to counter what I said or show me you misunderstood. You again called me a calvinist.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,286
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[QUOSTE="Mindwrencher, post: 4647279, member: 185914"]You are defending a doctrine and evading the truth. In Jn 6, Jesus is not saying that belief is God’s work and therefore you only believe if God makes you a believer. They asked Jesus what work of God they could do, meaning what sacrifice can we perform, what good deed can we do? Jesus flat told them that if the believed in Him as God’s Son that was the work they could do.
Otherwise, what are you saying? That a person cannot have faith in Jesus unless God miraculously instills faith in Him? I totally, completely disagree with that interpretation.[/QUOTE]


AND you are ignoring the MOTIVE for the good deeds. It has to be out of a the Motive of PURE LOVE, or it is WOOD, HAY, and Stubble at BEST, or FILTHY RAGS at worst. And you do not want to know what kind of Filthy Rags that verse is referring to. Again, that supposed good Deeds comes after Salvation.

So what part of GOD's ALL KNOWING NATURE, do you not Understand ? ? ? HE KNOWS WHO WILL DECIDE TO GENUINELY SURRENDER TO HIM, and who are just the PRETENDERS.

Isaiah 46:10 (HCSB)
10 I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will.
 
Jan 9, 2014
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Faith only is not calvinist, its the word of God

Once again, If your going to read everyone through calvinist glasses. Your never going to get anywhere, You called a legalist a calvinist. And you have misrepresented what I have been saying by trying to place me under calvinistic beliefs, when I am not a calvinist buy any mans.

Now if you want to talk. Let’s talk. If your going to continue this nonsense, You will never get anywhere in here. And you will cause people to ignore you.

You have totally ignored my scripture about faith alone. You misrepresented my about John 6, and when I correc ted you. You never even attempted to counter what I said or show me you misunderstood. You again called me a calvinist.
Ok, I apologize. Good day.
 
Jan 9, 2014
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[QUOSTE="Mindwrencher, post: 4647279, member: 185914"]You are defending a doctrine and evading the truth. In Jn 6, Jesus is not saying that belief is God’s work and therefore you only believe if God makes you a believer. They asked Jesus what work of God they could do, meaning what sacrifice can we perform, what good deed can we do? Jesus flat told them that if the believed in Him as God’s Son that was the work they could do.
Otherwise, what are you saying? That a person cannot have faith in Jesus unless God miraculously instills faith in Him? I totally, completely disagree with that interpretation.

AND you are ignoring the MOTIVE for the good deeds. It has to be out of a the Motive of PURE LOVE, or it is WOOD, HAY, and Stubble at BEST, or FILTHY RAGS at worst. And you do not want to know what kind of Filthy Rags that verse is referring to. Again, that supposed good Deeds comes after Salvation.

So what part of GOD's ALL KNOWING NATURE, do you not Understand ? ? ? HE KNOWS WHO WILL DECIDE TO GENUINELY SURRENDER TO HIM, and who are just the PRETENDERS.

Isaiah 46:10 (HCSB)
10 I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will.[/QUOTE
This particular thread of comments probably belongs in a separate post, lol.
But briefly, in Jn 6 Jesus says “This is the work of God, that you believe…”
Some interpret that to mean that God produces belief. They fail to see that such a conclusion makes Him a respecter of persons, choosing for some to believe but not others.
They do not realize that conclusion is a Calvinist doctrine that their particular church teaches.
Unfortunately, we disagree about Jn 6.
The opposite interpretation is that Jesus answered their question: “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
In other words, faith is that work you can do to work the works of God.
But a majority of christian churches refuse to believe that faith itself is a “work” that man can “do”.
They believe, rather dogmatically, that Faith is God’s work, based on Jn 6.
Exactly what Calvin believed.