Not By Works
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Actually the problem arises when one thinks salvation does not stop at justification
To be justified is a legal term, which means to be declaired righteous. Or innocent of all wrong doing.
We are guilty of sin, And the penalty is death. To be justified, means we are SAVED from the penalty of sin.
as for romans 4 and james 2. They do not say the same thing, because they are written to 2 different audiences.
Romans was written to fight legalism. Or the thought that we must earn or maintain salvation by works
James was written to a licentious group wh thought we could believe in one God, yet not have true saving faith. So we cna live however we want.
To be justified is a legal term, which means to be declaired righteous. Or innocent of all wrong doing.
We are guilty of sin, And the penalty is death. To be justified, means we are SAVED from the penalty of sin.
as for romans 4 and james 2. They do not say the same thing, because they are written to 2 different audiences.
Romans was written to fight legalism. Or the thought that we must earn or maintain salvation by works
James was written to a licentious group wh thought we could believe in one God, yet not have true saving faith. So we cna live however we want.
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the spirit can resolve all matters. but not in the way one might think it might... due to God's understand ING being so high [different - vast - er] than our own.
the spiritual man judges all things... but not in the ways people will /decide/ they must judge it (believe it).... according to their belief ----[ not according to the mind of Christ.
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It was written to the children of Israel. But is relevant to us. But you in context of the “works” passage. It was written to people who claimed to have faith hearers of the word only not doers (had no works)
In scripture many Jews who were freed from the bondage of the law. To it 180 degrees out and thought they could believe and they were ok. As Peter said many took Paul’s writings of grace and misread them to their own misunderstanding. James is telling them to test their faith. Is it a claimed
Faith only or a true living faith
In scripture many Jews who were freed from the bondage of the law. To it 180 degrees out and thought they could believe and they were ok. As Peter said many took Paul’s writings of grace and misread them to their own misunderstanding. James is telling them to test their faith. Is it a claimed
Faith only or a true living faith
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What I meant was that when it comes to the issue of Faith and Good works in relation to Salvation, Paul's work as seen in his letters to the believers and the Acts of the Apostles and what James wrote on the same are not different. My mind was not on Romans alone for one has to consider the "body" of his work as a whole to know his mindset on the subject.
As concerning Justification and Salvation, having seen your conviction on the subject, from the angle you are coming from, I know we are many miles apart from each other. The only common ground I can see is that, we both seem to agree that justification is by Devine action through faith alone. No human action is involved. To me this is truth. However, when we consider Salvation in the light of the new covenant, this truth leads to other truths of the gospel. I would like to leave it here for now.
As concerning Justification and Salvation, having seen your conviction on the subject, from the angle you are coming from, I know we are many miles apart from each other. The only common ground I can see is that, we both seem to agree that justification is by Devine action through faith alone. No human action is involved. To me this is truth. However, when we consider Salvation in the light of the new covenant, this truth leads to other truths of the gospel. I would like to leave it here for now.
I doubt if you considered the context in which the statement was made before putting forward your opinion. That statement was made within a specific context.
But, of course I believe that, we can reach a stage in our Christian life here on earth where we can be sinless if we imbibe and follow the understanding of God our Lord and savior, Jesus Christ delivered to us. However, being sinless and having no issues as you put it was not the point of discussion in the post you reacted upon.
But, of course I believe that, we can reach a stage in our Christian life here on earth where we can be sinless if we imbibe and follow the understanding of God our Lord and savior, Jesus Christ delivered to us. However, being sinless and having no issues as you put it was not the point of discussion in the post you reacted upon.
I have to disagree with what you said here. If you think that you can at some point reach sinless perfection in this life then you do not understand just how sinful man is.
We are to strive to be better but it is only when we are glorified with Christ Jesus that we will be like Him and be sinless.
We are to strive to be better but it is only when we are glorified with Christ Jesus that we will be like Him and be sinless.
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Do you understand what sanctification is? That is the process whereby after we are saved we grow more and more like Christ Jesus. We will at no point as long as we are in these bodies be sinless. When we are with Christ Jesus in heaven, glorified, then we will be like Him in other words sinless. But as I just said not until then.
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Do you think you need to be circumcised now? It is God that does that spiritually. Yes, we have a part to play after we are saved, but works do not enable us to be born again. Lack of works will not cause us to be unborn again. It would be better if the word "fruit" replaced "works".
Christians should be changing progressively from the moment they are born again. Emphasis on "should." Eventually all will be completed by when we meet Lord Jesus face to face. Christians will be rewarded for what they have done in this life. Some will suffer great loss as their works will burn up. Others will be greatly rewarded because they followed the leading of the Holy Spirit. That's where works come in.
Christians should be changing progressively from the moment they are born again. Emphasis on "should." Eventually all will be completed by when we meet Lord Jesus face to face. Christians will be rewarded for what they have done in this life. Some will suffer great loss as their works will burn up. Others will be greatly rewarded because they followed the leading of the Holy Spirit. That's where works come in.
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Sinless perfection is unattainable in this life. Paul did not say that he used to be the chief of sinners. He said, "I am the worst sinner".
(1 Timothy 1:15)
When the most holy and pure apostle John saw the risen Christ, he fell as if dead. Lord Jesus comforted John, saying do not be afraid. If John was sinless he had nothing to fear. (Revelation 1:17)
(1 Timothy 1:15)
When the most holy and pure apostle John saw the risen Christ, he fell as if dead. Lord Jesus comforted John, saying do not be afraid. If John was sinless he had nothing to fear. (Revelation 1:17)
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I can see you are stating the popular opinion here with regards to man and sin. But is this what scripture is telling us? I doubt. Just for instance
Scripture tells us
---- to be holy and perfect as our Father which is in heaven ( is there sin in holiness or perfection, is there sin in God?);
-----to be Christlike, - to reach the measure of the stature of the standard of Christ,;
-----to walk as Jesus walked here on earth (1John 2:6). For that is the only way we can be holy and perfect. Did Jesus sin while walking on earth? Are we saying that God is deceiving us by telling us to do what he knows we are incapable of doing?
He knows we are capable of doing it by his grace for His grace is sufficient for us as Christ Jesus tells us. (2 Cor. 12:9) His devine power has given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that has called us to glory and virtue ( 2 Peter 1:3) ----- called us not just to glory but to virtue as well.
So, you see, He did not just give us that injunction but he also gave us all the necessary tools and infrastructure we need to comply.. the more reason he gave us his Son to come and give us an understanding that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (2 John 5:20)
On Sanctification, well, I believe as scripture says, that our Salvation is contingent upon washing of regeneration (justification) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Sanctification). ( Titus 3:5, 2Thessalonians 2:13). I guess our definition of Salvation differs, therefore, our belief on same will equally differ.
Christ Jesus justified us with his blood so that we can have eternal life. ( inherit the kingdom). And to have eternal life we must do good works. Scripture tells us that God judges every man including believers according to their deeds ( The basis of God;s judgment is works mixed with faith, not faith for faith without good works is no faith. It is possible to say I have faith when no faith exists. And, this is one of the reasons we are tested or tried to prove our faith-- to show us our true heart). Those who obtain eternal life are them who in continuance in well doing seek glory, honor and immortality (Romans 2 :6 -11).
The " totality" of our Salvation ends with eternal life, not justification. Or what is the need of being justified without obtaining eternal life? One might say eternal life is automatic once one is justified, as I see people say, your justification saves you irrespective of what you do. Does the bible tell us so?
In justification we receive the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. In terms of quality, we have the same righteousness as Christ but in "quantity", it is not so. That is why we are required to grow in righteousness ( in this grace of God) to reach the measure of the stature of the standard of Christ. We grow in righteousness through Sanctification ---work mixed with faith, for faith is the catalyst for our works.
It is possible for a righteous man to sin and God states clearly in Ezekiel 18: 24 that a righteous man who sins will be treated just like a sinner is treated. Therefore, justification does not automatically give us the "totality" of our Salvation. As already mentioned, we are saved not just by Justification but by Justification and Sanctification. This is what gives us eternal life.
Jesus says, in my Fathers house there are many mansions. if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14: 2). And Paul tells us about his visions and revelations in 2 Cor 12: 1 - 5 of a man caught up to the third heaven and another caught up to paradise. And we know where the glory lies even if they are all in heaven. The race is not just to cross the line but to obtain the price. therefore, we must like St Paul, press toward the mark for the price of the high calling of God in Jesus Christ.
Scripture tells us
---- to be holy and perfect as our Father which is in heaven ( is there sin in holiness or perfection, is there sin in God?);
-----to be Christlike, - to reach the measure of the stature of the standard of Christ,;
-----to walk as Jesus walked here on earth (1John 2:6). For that is the only way we can be holy and perfect. Did Jesus sin while walking on earth? Are we saying that God is deceiving us by telling us to do what he knows we are incapable of doing?
He knows we are capable of doing it by his grace for His grace is sufficient for us as Christ Jesus tells us. (2 Cor. 12:9) His devine power has given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that has called us to glory and virtue ( 2 Peter 1:3) ----- called us not just to glory but to virtue as well.
So, you see, He did not just give us that injunction but he also gave us all the necessary tools and infrastructure we need to comply.. the more reason he gave us his Son to come and give us an understanding that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (2 John 5:20)
On Sanctification, well, I believe as scripture says, that our Salvation is contingent upon washing of regeneration (justification) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Sanctification). ( Titus 3:5, 2Thessalonians 2:13). I guess our definition of Salvation differs, therefore, our belief on same will equally differ.
Christ Jesus justified us with his blood so that we can have eternal life. ( inherit the kingdom). And to have eternal life we must do good works. Scripture tells us that God judges every man including believers according to their deeds ( The basis of God;s judgment is works mixed with faith, not faith for faith without good works is no faith. It is possible to say I have faith when no faith exists. And, this is one of the reasons we are tested or tried to prove our faith-- to show us our true heart). Those who obtain eternal life are them who in continuance in well doing seek glory, honor and immortality (Romans 2 :6 -11).
The " totality" of our Salvation ends with eternal life, not justification. Or what is the need of being justified without obtaining eternal life? One might say eternal life is automatic once one is justified, as I see people say, your justification saves you irrespective of what you do. Does the bible tell us so?
In justification we receive the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. In terms of quality, we have the same righteousness as Christ but in "quantity", it is not so. That is why we are required to grow in righteousness ( in this grace of God) to reach the measure of the stature of the standard of Christ. We grow in righteousness through Sanctification ---work mixed with faith, for faith is the catalyst for our works.
It is possible for a righteous man to sin and God states clearly in Ezekiel 18: 24 that a righteous man who sins will be treated just like a sinner is treated. Therefore, justification does not automatically give us the "totality" of our Salvation. As already mentioned, we are saved not just by Justification but by Justification and Sanctification. This is what gives us eternal life.
Jesus says, in my Fathers house there are many mansions. if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14: 2). And Paul tells us about his visions and revelations in 2 Cor 12: 1 - 5 of a man caught up to the third heaven and another caught up to paradise. And we know where the glory lies even if they are all in heaven. The race is not just to cross the line but to obtain the price. therefore, we must like St Paul, press toward the mark for the price of the high calling of God in Jesus Christ.
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First, I would not like to use the word Sinless perfection because there is no sin in God's perfection. I would rather use holiness or perfection or even sinless. If Perfection is not possible here on earth, why should we be told by Christ Jesus to be holy and perfect as our Father which is heaven?
As regards 1Timothy 1:15 which you quoted, I know for sure that Paul was referring to his state prior to his conversion. You may have to read further from 1Timothy 12 - 16.
As regards 1Timothy 1:15 which you quoted, I know for sure that Paul was referring to his state prior to his conversion. You may have to read further from 1Timothy 12 - 16.
Exactly right, Precious friend:
Salvation is 100 Percent Free, But Eternal Rewards
{incorruptible crown/reigning With HIM!} are 100 percent Earned!
(1) God's Simple Will!
(2) (2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)
(3) EACH of us will Only give account of him/herSELF To CHRIST, At The BEMA
Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, In Heaven! (1 Corinthians 3:7-15), Correct?
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
Salvation is 100 Percent Free, But Eternal Rewards
{incorruptible crown/reigning With HIM!} are 100 percent Earned!
(1) God's Simple Will!
(2) (2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)
(3) EACH of us will Only give account of him/herSELF To CHRIST, At The BEMA
Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, In Heaven! (1 Corinthians 3:7-15), Correct?
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!