Not By Works

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,055
508
113
In the once saved always saved belief, there is a teaching that is along the lines of... yes once saved always saved.. but the saved person WILL be continuously faithful... will do good works.

Scripture doesn't really support this though.

After being saved.. it isn't an absolutely certainty the person will be faithful to the end.

Jesus of course wants this, but it isn't guaranteed.

There is going to be fruit from the Holy Spirit indwelling a persons spirit.. like patience, kindness etc..

It would be awesome if all believers continued to abide in the vine, but there is no guarantee they will.

'He who endures to the end will be saved'... context of this is deliverance from trials and tribulations..not eternal abput salvation.

It isn't works that gets salvation.. so it isn't works that maintains it. But Jesus still admonishes us to follow Him out of love back to the freedom giver.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
113
North Carolina
Salvation and living life as Christ wants us to are different issues. Salvation is once and for all. Living a life pleasing to our Lord is a daily challenge and can be held up only through faith, perseverance and growing in grace and maturity made possible only through yielding to the Holy Spirit by which we are sealed
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
113
North Carolina
Thank you God for sending your Son, Jesus the Christ, to earth in order to save all from their sins and to reconcile man to you. Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,559
4,395
113
In the once saved always saved belief, there is a teaching that is along the lines of... yes once saved always saved.. but the saved person WILL be continuously faithful... will do good works.

Scripture doesn't really support this though.

After being saved.. it isn't an absolutely certainty the person will be faithful to the end.

Jesus of course wants this, but it isn't guaranteed.

There is going to be fruit from the Holy Spirit indwelling a persons spirit.. like patience, kindness etc..

It would be awesome if all believers continued to abide in the vine, but there is no guarantee they will.

'He who endures to the end will be saved'... context of this is deliverance from trials and tribulations..not eternal abput salvation.

It isn't works that gets salvation.. so it isn't works that maintains it. But Jesus still admonishes us to follow Him out of love back to the freedom giver.
NO THAT IS JUST WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE THAT WE WANT TO BELIEVE. LEARN TO ASK US WHAT WE BELIEVE, AND WE WILL TELL YOU, BUT IT IS NOT ANYTHING LIKE YOU THINK WE BELIEVE. NO MATTER HOW MANY SERMONS YOU HAVE HEARD OTHERWISE.

Here is a MAJOR CLUE to what we REALLY BELIEVE. AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WORKS AT ALL.

1 Chronicles 28:9-10 (NRSV)
9 "And you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve him with single mind and willing heart; for the LORD searches every mind, and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will abandon you forever.
10 Take heed now, for the LORD has chosen you to build a house as the sanctuary; be strong, and act."

Romans 8:27 (NRSV)
27 And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Revelation 2:23 (ESV)
23 . . . . . . . And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.


IF YOU SERVE HIM, BECAUSE YOU ACTUALLY LOVE HIM, AND IF YOU SERVE HIM FOR ANY OTHER REASON, IT IS JUST WOOD, HAY, AND STUBBLE AT BEST, AND AT THE WORST, IT IS FILTHY RAGS (AND YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW WHAT KIND OF FILTY RAGS THEY ARE,). It has never been about WORKS, it has always been about MOTIVE.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Romans 8:29-30 (HCSB)
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
1,088
338
83
In the once saved always saved belief, there is a teaching that is along the lines of... yes once saved always saved.. but the saved person WILL be continuously faithful... will do good works.

Scripture doesn't really support this though.

After being saved.. it isn't an absolutely certainty the person will be faithful to the end.

Jesus of course wants this, but it isn't guaranteed.
Does not John say whoever lives in sin has never seen or Known God, and whoever is born of God does not sin?

We can see even in the OT where men and women of God still sinned after they were saved (Murder, adultry etc)

Also. Faith in God for salvation. and faith in him for all areas of our life is not the same. We are saved by faith in Christ for salvation. Not faith in God for this particular area of our life. Thats why we are born babes needing to grow
There is going to be fruit from the Holy Spirit indwelling a persons spirit.. like patience, kindness etc..

It would be awesome if all believers continued to abide in the vine, but there is no guarantee they will.

'He who endures to the end will be saved'... context of this is deliverance from trials and tribulations..not eternal abput salvation.

It isn't works that gets salvation.. so it isn't works that maintains it. But Jesus still admonishes us to follow Him out of love back to the freedom giver.
if you have to endure to be spiritually saved eternally. Then it is of your own power. And since it is of your own power. it is of works you are trying to maintain your salvation in the flesh.

So yes, it would be considered works salvation.

One must remember the context of Jesus words. He is talking about those enduring great tribulation. The end would be when he returned.

Just a thought
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,055
508
113
Does not John say whoever lives in sin has never seen or Known God, and whoever is born of God does not sin?

We can see even in the OT where men and women of God still sinned after they were saved (Murder, adultry etc)

Also. Faith in God for salvation. and faith in him for all areas of our life is not the same. We are saved by faith in Christ for salvation. Not faith in God for this particular area of our life. Thats why we are born babes needing to grow


if you have to endure to be spiritually saved eternally. Then it is of your own power. And since it is of your own power. it is of works you are trying to maintain your salvation in the flesh.

So yes, it would be considered works salvation.

One must remember the context of Jesus words. He is talking about those enduring great tribulation. The end would be when he returned.

Just a thought
Yeah, the spirit in someone when it is saved eternally, never sins.. because of the Holy Spirit indwelling, but the flesh is weak and still sins.

Sinning less in our mortal body a saved person can do. Sinning not at all.. only God has this power.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,411
3,395
113
We NEVER lose our Salvation, that is secure IN CHRIST.

Our works will be judged and condemned or rewarded.

Good works being obedience to God's Word and His Ways - walking by the Spirit.

Bad works being disobedience to God's Word and His Ways - walking in the flesh.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,411
3,395
113
I'm so glad Jesus Christ humanly fulfilled ALL the Law God required from us for Salvation. There is no fear of losing our Salvation.

The good works we do now are because we love Jesus and have joy in obeying Him.

For instance, we are commanded to love one another and forgive each other... there is great joy for us, others and God if we love and forgive one another.

There will also be rewards for us in Heaven if we do this and it testifies of the love and forgiveness of God.

To the True Believer, it's an absolute joy to obey the Word of God by so doing we humble ourselves under God, take refuge under His wings, deny our flesh and take up our cross and follow Jesus Christ...the Holy Spirit empowers us to understand and obey God's Word - there is NO condemnation. :love:(y)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,559
4,395
113
Does not John say whoever lives in sin has never seen or Known God, and whoever is born of God does not sin?

We can see even in the OT where men and women of God still sinned after they were saved (Murder, adultry etc)

Also. Faith in God for salvation. and faith in him for all areas of our life is not the same. We are saved by faith in Christ for salvation. Not faith in God for this particular area of our life. Thats why we are born babes needing to grow


if you have to endure to be spiritually saved eternally. Then it is of your own power. And since it is of your own power. it is of works you are trying to maintain your salvation in the flesh.

So yes, it would be considered works salvation.

One must remember the context of Jesus words. He is talking about those enduring great tribulation. The end would be when he returned.

Just a thought
Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1642403886264.png 1642403988944.png 1642403996147.png


5 He saved us- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified BY HIS GRACE, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.



That is not what the Bible say, but a way to develop a false doctrine.
Does not John say whoever lives in sin has never seen or Known God, and whoever is born of God does not sin?

We can see even in the OT where men and women of God still sinned after they were saved (Murder, adultry etc)

Also. Faith in God for salvation. and faith in him for all areas of our life is not the same. We are saved by faith in Christ for salvation. Not faith in God for this particular area of our life. Thats why we are born babes needing to grow


if you have to endure to be spiritually saved eternally. Then it is of your own power. And since it is of your own power. it is of works you are trying to maintain your salvation in the flesh.




So yes, it would be considered works salvation.

One must remember the context of Jesus words. He is talking about those enduring great tribulation. The end would be when he returned.

Just a thought
I stated this post last night LATE, and fell asleep. I was objecting to use of the word we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

We are Saved BY GRACE, and nothing of our own:

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

And NOT OF SALVATION do we get to pat ourselves on the back. WHY? God, because of his foreknowledge Saved us before He formed the world. You see GOD SAVED US BEFORE HE FORMED THE WORLD. Faith is just the proof that that we were saved before the Foundation of the Earth.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Do not confuse Faith which comes from us, after SALVATION, with GRACE, that comes Purely From GOD.

Romans 8:28-30 (ESV)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Absolutely NOTHING FOR OUR SALVATION COMES FROM US. Don't you know, it all comes from GOD!

WE DO NOT GET TO PAT OURSELVES ON THE BACK FOR ANY OF IT.


JESUS DID IT ALL! GOD IS MUCH BIGGER AND MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU KNOW.
 

Attachments

Jul 23, 2018
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NO THAT IS JUST WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE THAT WE WANT TO BELIEVE. LEARN TO ASK US WHAT WE BELIEVE, AND WE WILL TELL YOU, BUT IT IS NOT ANYTHING LIKE YOU THINK WE BELIEVE. NO MATTER HOW MANY SERMONS YOU HAVE HEARD OTHERWISE.

Here is a MAJOR CLUE to what we REALLY BELIEVE. AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WORKS AT ALL.

1 Chronicles 28:9-10 (NRSV)
9 "And you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve him with single mind and willing heart; for the LORD searches every mind, and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will abandon you forever.
10 Take heed now, for the LORD has chosen you to build a house as the sanctuary; be strong, and act."

Romans 8:27 (NRSV)
27 And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Revelation 2:23 (ESV)
23 . . . . . . . And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.


IF YOU SERVE HIM, BECAUSE YOU ACTUALLY LOVE HIM, AND IF YOU SERVE HIM FOR ANY OTHER REASON, IT IS JUST WOOD, HAY, AND STUBBLE AT BEST, AND AT THE WORST, IT IS FILTHY RAGS (AND YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW WHAT KIND OF FILTY RAGS THEY ARE,). It has never been about WORKS, it has always been about MOTIVE.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Romans 8:29-30 (HCSB)
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
Good to see you in here vco!

Bless you.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,559
4,395
113
Does not John say whoever lives in sin has never seen or Known God, and whoever is born of God does not sin?

We can see even in the OT where men and women of God still sinned after they were saved (Murder, adultry etc)

Also. Faith in God for salvation. and faith in him for all areas of our life is not the same. We are saved by faith in Christ for salvation. Not faith in God for this particular area of our life. Thats why we are born babes needing to grow


if you have to endure to be spiritually saved eternally. Then it is of your own power. And since it is of your own power. it is of works you are trying to maintain your salvation in the flesh.

So yes, it would be considered works salvation.

One must remember the context of Jesus words. He is talking about those enduring great tribulation. The end would be when he returned.

Just a thought

Oh My!

So you MOTIVE for serving the Lord is to maintain SALAVATION.

My motive for serving the Lord is to because he loved me and I want to love him back.

Which do you think HE will respect?

Numbers 16:28 (NKJV)
28 And Moses said: "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will.

1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 It is not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose.


Are you not Robbing Christ of the GLORY THAT SOLELY BELONGS TO HIM!


Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish-ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.


2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

Acts 13:48 (NRSV)
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.

Isaiah 46:9-12 (NJB)
9 Remember the things that happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
10 From the beginning I revealed the future, in advance, what has not yet occurred. I say: My purpose will come about, I shall do whatever I please;
11 I call a bird of prey from the east, my man predestined, from a distant land. What I have said, I shall do, what I have planned, I shall perform.
12 Listen to me, you hard-hearted people far removed from saving justice:
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
1,088
338
83
Oh My!

So you MOTIVE for serving the Lord is to maintain SALAVATION.

My motive for serving the Lord is to because he loved me and I want to love him back.

Which do you think HE will respect?

Numbers 16:28 (NKJV)
28 And Moses said: "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will.

1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 It is not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose.


Are you not Robbing Christ of the GLORY THAT SOLELY BELONGS TO HIM!


Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish-ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.


2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

Acts 13:48 (NRSV)
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.

Isaiah 46:9-12 (NJB)
9
Remember the things that happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
10 From the beginning I revealed the future, in advance, what has not yet occurred. I say: My purpose will come about, I shall do whatever I please;
11 I call a bird of prey from the east,
my man predestined, from a distant land. What I have said, I shall do, what I have planned, I shall perform.
12 Listen to me, you hard-hearted people far removed
from saving justice:
Brother, You totally misunderstood what I said.

I believer eternal life is eternal. Not conditional. I am not sure how you get me saying we are saved by faith in christ for salvation, Into maintain by works?

My motive for serving God is because he first loved me. And saved me
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
1,088
338
83
Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . View attachment 235126 View attachment 235127 View attachment 235128


5 He saved us- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified BY HIS GRACE, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.



That is not what the Bible say, but a way to develop a false doctrine.


I stated this post last night LATE, and fell asleep. I was objecting to use of the word we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

We are Saved BY GRACE, and nothing of our own:

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

And NOT OF SALVATION do we get to pat ourselves on the back. WHY? God, because of his foreknowledge Saved us before He formed the world. You see GOD SAVED US BEFORE HE FORMED THE WORLD. Faith is just the proof that that we were saved before the Foundation of the Earth.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Do not confuse Faith which comes from us, after SALVATION, with GRACE, that comes Purely From GOD.

Romans 8:28-30 (ESV)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Absolutely NOTHING FOR OUR SALVATION COMES FROM US. Don't you know, it all comes from GOD!

WE DO NOT GET TO PAT OURSELVES ON THE BACK FOR ANY OF IT.


JESUS DID IT ALL! GOD IS MUCH BIGGER AND MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU KNOW.
For by grace we have been saved through faith

There is no salvation apart from faith my friend,

The lord drew me, He convicted me, He convinced me, And he forced me to make a decision.

As he does us all.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,559
4,395
113
How many works did you BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

You are robbing Jesus of the GLORY that totally belongs to HIM.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
1,088
338
83
How many works did you BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

You are robbing Jesus of the GLORY that totally belongs to HIM.
if this is directed at me. I am not sure what your beef is. I did not work. I am saved by GRACE through faith. Not faith.

This calvanist fear (I assume your calvinist) of faith is worrysome.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

Whoever believes will not perish but has eternal life

Jesus said if you would have asked, he would have given living water flowing to eternal life

Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness

Call out on the name, for with the heart one believes.

Yes, it is the work of God. But God is not going t force it on you. Its part of his loving nature. His desire is that you want his gift. By trusting in him
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,559
4,395
113
Good to see you in here vco!

Bless you.
The last time I was in the hospital in Sept. I thought the Lord was calling me home. I am 72 with lots of heart problems and stroke problems. The put a pacemaker in me, it boosted my metabolism way up, I lost 31 pounds in two weeks, my blood sugar returned to normal with meds, and I feel 10 years younger. PRAISE THE LORD! And now I feel like I could live 15 more years. I thought I was on the way up.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
44,096
18,515
113
We NEVER lose our Salvation, that is secure IN CHRIST.

Our works will be judged and condemned or rewarded.

Good works being obedience to God's Word and His Ways - walking by the Spirit.

Bad works being disobedience to God's Word and His Ways - walking in the flesh.
There is now no condemnation...