Not By Works

notmyown · Jun 22, 2024

it's called "the work of God" (don't miss the definite article there) because it's GOD's work. as such, it is perfect!

Beckworth · Jun 22, 2024

The Bible does not contradict itself. So Ephesians 2 cannot contradict James 2:24.
If your doctrine contradicts other passages in the Bible, Then there is something wrong with your doctrine. Both passages are inspired by God. Are you saying God was wrong in James 2:24? Do you think God made a mistake?
You hold on to a “faith only” doctrine that plainly CONTRADICTS James 2:24. It is impossible for salvation to be “by faith only” and “NOT by faith only at the same time. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are saved by “faith only”, but it DOES say we are NOT saved by “faith only”. We are saved by faith, yes, but not by faith alone. Your mistake is that you mentally ADD the word “ONLY” to every passage you read about faith. The word “only” or “alone” is not there.

crossnote said:

Yes, faith is necessary— no one is doubting that. The Bible just teaches that faith by itself will not save you. In John 5:24, the word “only “ is not there. Neither is the word “alone”. For this verse to support a doctrine of “faith alone” it would have to say, “ he who hears my word and “only”believes….” THAT would teach “faith only.” Belief is only a first step to salvation. The scriptures say that that there are other things like repentance and confession and baptism that are necessary, too. If not, then how do you explain such passages as Roman’s 10:9-10 and Acts 3:19, Luke 13:3 and Acts 2:38? The word “only” or “alone” is not in any of those scriptures or the ones you quote on faith.
God solves our problem and answers this debate plainly in James 2:22. GOD says that “faith” and “works” WORK TOGETHER!! Amazing!! That’s what I have been saying. It takes BOTH for salvation. That’s why He says in verse 24- NOT BY FAITH ONLY. If you won’t believe what God says then I certainly cannot help you. God help your soul.

notmyown said:

Yes, but my point was that Jesus says faith is a WORK! If all works are bad, and you can’t be saved by works, and works have nothing to do with salvation—then “faith” is bad, we can’t be saved by “faith” and faith has nothing to do with salvation— your words not mine.

Genez · Jun 22, 2024

notmyown said:

The question rarely answered?

How is that work done?

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:28-29

And, why was God's work needed?

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God;

it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. " Romans 8:7

God's work was needed because without God's power of grace suppressing and holding down our flesh's influence over our soul, no soul would be free to believe in Christ!

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God

The work of God is to "free up" our soul from the dominance of our flesh.
Thus enabling our soul being free of the flesh to make its own choice!
And, what is that choice to be for?

FAITH!

Faith then comes by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17

But, keep in mind. Freeing up the soul from the flesh does not guarantee that one will believe.
It only guarantees that the soul under grace will be able to believe!

That is why those who refuse to believe?
Are HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

God makes sense.
We don't always do so well...

grace and peace ..............

.

Beckworth · Jun 22, 2024

crossnote said:

Just as much as God requires. Whatever God says. God gives us the answer to the faith/works debate in James 2:22 Though I doubt that you will believe or accept what God says. He says that faith and works WORK TOGETHER to produce salvation. THAT is what I am saying, too. It’s not one or the other—it’s BOTH. According to James 2:22.

Pilgrimshope · Jun 22, 2024

Beckworth said:

It’s just that real faith leads leads to the work spoken by God . Faith is not understood the same way by everyone

One man looks at faith and says “ this is the reason I don’t need to do what God said I need to do I have faith instead “

The other person hears faith and says “ this is the reason I don’t need to try to figure out what to do now I can just trust him and follow his word and receive his promises

faith is not the reason we don’t need to hear what God said and obey him

faith comes from believing what he said will save our souls even when he told us what to do or not to do we either believe him and obey or explain why faith means I don’t need to do what he said

the terms like faith or repentance or righteousness ….Grace

people often have vastly different ideas about what these biblical terms mean

If grace and faith means now no one has to do anything God said to do that will save us we’re not understanding but if we just learn from Jesus faith is always going to lead to obedience in our actions the works will always come from faith

its the idea that “ faith “ means I no longer need to do anything the lord said will save me “ is destroying minds

Genez · Jun 22, 2024

Beckworth said:

Need to give what it says....

Just saying, " James 2:22" means nothing to someone who is in an argumentative mood.

You see that his faith and his actions were working together,
and his faith was made complete by what he did.'

James 2:22

notmyown · Jun 23, 2024

Beckworth said:

good morning! i'm puzzled by what you said here, but i'm sure it's a failing on my part.

i don't think you and i will see eye to eye on this issue, but i want to go on record on this one point.

everyone ever saved is most definitely saved by works. everyone. ever.

however, those works belong to Christ. His works save us, not our own. will we obey Him as we walk in the Spirit? you betcha! it's not meritorious to us, though. all the merit, the credit, the glory, go to God, who enables us to do so.

Lord bless you.

crossnote · Jun 23, 2024

Beckworth said:

Again, please answer, 'how much works are required of us until we are saved?'

crossnote · Jun 23, 2024

Beckworth said:

James 2:22 NASB95
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

Too bad James isn't speaking about salvation in chapter 2 but about fruit which we ought to have.

Let's look at a couple of more concerning the perfecting of faith...

Philippians 2:12-13 NASB95
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; [13] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Philippians 1:6 NASB95
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 12:2 NASB95
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The faith created in Abraham was perfected by God to the point Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, but his salvation started at the beginning when he heard God's call and believed and was justified.

Romans 8:30 NASB95
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

There is also this...

Matthew 17:20 NASB95
And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

It's not the size of our faith but the object.

Romans 3:28 NASB95
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Genez · Jun 23, 2024

crossnote said:

Was Samson doing works when the Spirit filled him to slaughter the Philistines?

Yes..
He was doing a work.
Yet, it was God providing the power needed to fulfill it!

Samson was 'willing' to have God work through him....

That type of 'works' God finds acceptable!

“For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,

which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Ephesians 2:10

When we know God's Word well enough?
Then we can make sure to stay out of the way when God wants to work through us!

Why stay out of His way?

Why do we need to know His Word very well for Him to work through us?

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways,”

declares the Lord."

That's why!

Some are so ignorant of God's Word?
They might even think its the Devil trying to get them to do something!!!

False doctrine can be formulated to make one feel comfortable in their skin in regards to what they wish God would heve them to do to please Him...

All is fair in love and war. And, we are in a war of a spiritual kind.

grace and peace .......

crossnote · Jun 23, 2024

Genez said:

We don't necessarily, as here...

Luke 5:8-9 KJV
When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. [9] For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:

Also with Samson...

Judges 14:4 NASB95
However, his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD, for He was seeking an occasion against the Philistines. Now at that time the Philistines were ruling over Israel.

Genez · Jun 23, 2024

crossnote said:

Not sure know how you make what I said work with that.

But.. here is an example of how Peter's ignorance got him clobbered by Jesus.

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem

and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of

the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said.

“This shall never happen to you!”

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me;

you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Matthew 16:21-23

Many of us if they were present when Peter was with Jesus?
And ignorant of doctrine?

Would have seen Peter as being loving, noble, and good.

We got to not fight this and learn to accept what is needed to grow
and become transformed away from our own way of seeing things.

grace and peace .................

PennEd · Jun 24, 2024

Beckworth said:

That's right. That's why your erroneous interpretation of James, and complete dismissal of Ephesians, is so disturbing1

Beckworth said:

Yes. I agree YOUR doctrine is wrong. Please correct.

Beckworth said:

Yes. We are saved by Grace THROUGH faith alone. NOT by works.
James is talking about what we do in RESPONSE to that saving faith.

Abraham believed God FIRST. Then, in response to that belief he acted. MANY yrs later, in offering Isaac.

But not before he tried to "help" God by in effect NOT fully believing God's promise of a son through Sarah.
"Hey, maybe I should interpret God saying HE would supply a child through Sarah, by waiting to see if I helped Him, by impregnating Sarah's handmaid!"

That's the same incredibly faulty reasoning the "works" people like you push here. And look at the result of Abraham "helping" God.

Ishmael's descendants persecute Isaac's descendants TO THIS DAY.

It also rings of Satan's temptation to Christ. "You don't need to suffer and die to rule all the Kingdoms of Earth, just worship me."

Our works to attain or maintain Salvation may be OUR last temptation.
DON'T FAIL THAT TEST!!!

GRACE_ambassador · Jun 24, 2024

not by works?:
No, not today, Under Grace:

"And if by Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace

is no more Grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more Grace:

otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6 AV)

No more of works? Well, was it before?:

God's Word Of Truth, Right Divided:

A) God's Context of:

prophecy / covenants / law With Christ As The Humble Servant,
"minister of the circumcision" and to be future King, on the earth:

John [ the baptizer ], Christ, the 70 sent out, and the twelve, to the
"lost sheep of the house [ 12 tribes ] of Israel", preaching to them,
the gospel of the kingdom

“faith plus works” Scriptural Requirements of this gospel:

1) water baptism "For the remission of sins" (works)

(Matthew 3:6; Mark 1:4, 16:16; Luke 3:2-3; Acts 2:38 AV)

2) keep the law of Moses (works)

(Matthew 5:17-19, 19:16-17, 23:1-3 cp Acts 21:20, 22:12 AV)

3) righteousness Exceeding Pharisees’ (works) (Matthew 5:20 AV)

4) forgive others first, then be forgiven (works) (Matthew 6:14-15 AV)

5) sell all, take up cross, follow Christ (works (Matthew 19:21;

Mark 10:21 cp Acts 2:44-45, 4:34-37 AV)

6) endure unto the end (works) (Matthew 24:13 AV)

7) mercy toward others (works) (Matthew 25:34-40 AV)

Scripturally Confirmed by "faith without works is dead" to
"the twelve tribes of Israel" (James 1:1, 2:17, 20, 26 AV)

gospel of the kingdom

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

The Gospel Of The Grace Of God

B) God's Other Context of:

Mystery / Grace With Christ As The Risen and Glorified Head Of
His Church, The One Body Of Christ, and Heavenly Minister Of
Reconciliation:

Paul, one apostle to the [ blinded Jews ] and the [ heathen ] Gentiles,
preaching Jesus Christ, According To [ Given By Christ, From Heaven ]
The Revelation of The Mystery:

The Gospel Of The Grace Of God

1) Paul, Saved By Grace And Mercy, far apart from Jerusalem, the twelve
apostles, and their prophecy, covenants, and law, God Committing to
him "The Dispensation Of The Grace Of God" (Ephesians 3:2 AV), With:

2) Paul, the first 'member' of the One Body Of Christ, Baptized By The

Spirit in Acts Chapter 9, which is:

a) the One New man [ not a woman 'bride' ]

(Ephesians 2:15 cp "man" in Ephesians 4:13 AV), which is:

b) A New 'creation' (2 Corinthians 5:17 AV), and Now:

c) all members after Paul, "follow a pattern":

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, that in me first

Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern

to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life

everlasting." (1 Timothy 1:16 AV)

+

"Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me."

(1 Corinthians 4:16 AV)

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

(1 Corinthians 1:11 AV)

"Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children"

(Ephesians 5:1 AV)

"Brethren, be followers together of me..."

(Philippians 3:17 AV)

3) Two Requirements of The Gospel Of The Grace Of God:

"By Grace Through faith" Apart from all works, For God's

Eternal Salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4;

Romans 3-5, 11:6; Titus 3:4-7 AV)

4) The 'One Gospel' for Today, In Which God Forbids for another to
be preached, or mixed in, with His Gospel Of The Grace Of God:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into

The Grace Of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but

there be some that trouble you, and would pervert The Gospel Of Christ.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto

you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other

gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

(Galatians 1:6-9 AV)

Lord, I pray that all brothers and sisters are in agreement with your One
Grace Gospel of today, and will not fall under this horrible curse.

Amen.

Genez · Jun 24, 2024

Ever notice how much work we must do to prove we are not saved by works?

Beckworth · Jun 24, 2024

GRACE_ambassador said: