Not only are we not under the law, we should not try to abide by it.

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Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
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#61
this is exactly what Rasputin believed and practiced. there was not any detestable act he was unwilling to try. up until the day he died he really believed he was a Christian.
But Rasputin, like you, appeared to make the mistake of thinking that morals come from the law.

It has already been explained in this thread that this is not the case.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,118
365
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#62
But Rasputin, like you, appeared to make the mistake of thinking that morals come from the law.

It has already been explained in this thread that this is not the case.
it makes little difference what he thought, the end result of his actions were a debauched and detestable life from NOT following the law. kinda like that church in Revelation that was involved in all the wicked sex acts, Jesus did not seem very pleased with their actions, cant understand why if they were not under any law.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,818
1,227
113
#63
it makes little difference what he thought, the end result of his actions were a debauched and detestable life from NOT following the law. kinda like that church in Revelation that was involved in all the wicked sex acts, Jesus did not seem very pleased with their actions, cant understand why if they were not under any law.
The Law didn't seem to help the ancient Hebrews all that much either.

The Lord Jesus didn't seem too pleased with them, either.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
907
263
63
#64
" Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

Romans 13:8-9
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
41
28
#65
it makes little difference what he thought, the end result of his actions were a debauched and detestable life from NOT following the law. kinda like that church in Revelation that was involved in all the wicked sex acts, Jesus did not seem very pleased with their actions, cant understand why if they were not under any law.
You have recognised elsewhere in this thread that Christians are not under the law.

See the quotes and link in the original post.

It has also been demonstrated to you that trying to follow the law does not make you righteous, and that breaking one part of the law is equivalent to breaking the whole law.

You're now repeating your latest point over and over again, albeit in different ways, which simply boils down to
"How can one be moral without following the law?".

I have already answered this, as have others.

Debating is fine, but I've seen your other posts on these forums and you have a knack for
a. Asking the same thing over and over, just in different ways
b. Putting words in people's mouths and accusing them of saying something they clearly didn't (in fairness you haven't done that in this thread yet)

Just READ the replies that people have given you.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
2,644
1,015
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#66
I had a gay workmate who said that if everyone followed the ten commandments there would be no problems, but then in the same breath he would say you cant ban cigarettes as people will still smoke them anyway.
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
41
28
#67
I had a gay workmate who said that if everyone followed the ten commandments there would be no problems, but then in the same breath he would say you cant ban cigarettes as people will still smoke them anyway.
In other words, people tend to do what they want?

Perhaps this is one of the reasons why it is not possible to follow the law?

Luckily, we're no longer under a curse.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,118
365
83
#68
The Law didn't seem to help the ancient Hebrews all that much either.

The Lord Jesus didn't seem too pleased with them, either.
you have any example of the ancient Jews being lead into dire straits when they chose to obey the law?
i remember king David and Solomons life going right down the gutter but this only after they chose to ignore the law and go after other gods, commit murder, adultry, wicked schemes etc.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,118
365
83
#69
You have recognised elsewhere in this thread that Christians are not under the law.

See the quotes and link in the original post.

It has also been demonstrated to you that trying to follow the law does not make you righteous, and that breaking one part of the law is equivalent to breaking the whole law.

You're now repeating your latest point over and over again, albeit in different ways, which simply boils down to
"How can one be moral without following the law?".

I have already answered this, as have others.

Debating is fine, but I've seen your other posts on these forums and you have a knack for
a. Asking the same thing over and over, just in different ways
b. Putting words in people's mouths and accusing them of saying something they clearly didn't (in fairness you haven't done that in this thread yet)

Just READ the replies that people have given you.
ignoring is not answering, its actually the opposite, this would explain much of your confusion.
it has been demonstrated to you that the example of Jesus was following the law.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#70
ignoring is not answering, its actually the opposite, this would explain much of your confusion.
it has been demonstrated to you that the example of Jesus was following the law.

And it has been demonstrated to you that Jesus came to fulfill the Law. But you seem to not let facts get in the way of your arguments.

Galatians 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 to redeem those under the Law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.

Romans 7: Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Romans 7: But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

You can add these three to the long and growing list of scriptures you have utterly ignored.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#71
No. It doesn't make you more righteous, it places you under a curse.

"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, Everyone who does not do everything written in the book of the law is cursed." (Galatians 3:10)

And it makes you a fool.

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3)
Excellent post.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#72
He who loves as Jesus loves has the Law written on his heart and has no need to have it marked on his flesh.

Jeremiah 31:33- But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Romans 2:29- But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,118
365
83
#73
And it has been demonstrated to you that Jesus came to fulfill the Law.

looks like the first thing you do is immediately get off on the wrong foot. now if Jesus came out and said the law is fulfilled . . . . the end. yes, your argument would actually have some substance, however thats not how it happened. here is what was said.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

what you dont seem to get no matter how many times its explained is that abolish and fulfilled do not mean the same thing in the statement, we know this because Jesus says NOT abolished but fulfilled.

please explain what Jesus means when He says NOT abolished?
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
41
28
#74
And it has been demonstrated to you that Jesus came to fulfill the Law. But you seem to not let facts get in the way of your arguments.

Galatians 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 to redeem those under the Law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.

Romans 7: Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Romans 7: But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

You can add these three to the long and growing list of scriptures you have utterly ignored.
Good response to THAT guy *rolls eyes*

This thread seems to be attracting two kinds of comments, with nothing in between:

a. Very thoughtful, deep comments that are clearly articulated and logical.

OR

b. Poorly thought out and illogical responses that arise because the poster seems to have a Jewish-Christian mish-mashed understanding of the scripture.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#75
looks like the first thing you do is immediately get off on the wrong foot. now if Jesus came out and said the law is fulfilled . . . . the end. yes, your argument would actually have some substance, however thats not how it happened. here is what was said.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

what you dont seem to get no matter how many times its explained is that abolish and fulfilled do not mean the same thing in the statement, we know this because Jesus says NOT abolished but fulfilled.

please explain what Jesus means when He says NOT abolished?
It means that Jesus did not set the Law aside unfulfilled. He fulfilled it perfectly.

If Jesus came and said, "ok, we had a law, but no one was able to keep it, so we're going to abolish it" that would be abolishing the Law. But that's not what He did. HE SUBMITTED HIMSELF TO EVERY PART OF THE LAW, because HE CAME TO FULFILL IT. And FULFILL IT HE DID>

AGAIN, I will repeat. ABOLISHMENT would have been if Jesus had cancelled the Law out without it's fulfillment taking place. But since it was fulfilled perfectly by HIM, it has not been abolished, it has been fulfilled.

Jesus is our perfect substitute. He took our place by fulfilling the just requirements of the Law for us, and He took our place by taking the just punishment of the Law that was due to us, He took it for us.

He took our sins and gave us His Righteousness. Including the righteousness that He accomplished for us by perfectly keeping the Law in His sinless Life.

Very simple, if you bother to take things in their proper context.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#76
It means that Jesus did not set the Law aside unfulfilled. He fulfilled it perfectly.

If Jesus came and said, "ok, we had a law, but no one was able to keep it, so we're going to abolish it" that would be abolishing the Law. But that's not what He did. HE SUBMITTED HIMSELF TO EVERY PART OF THE LAW, because HE CAME TO FULFILL IT. And FULFILL IT HE DID>

AGAIN, I will repeat. ABOLISHMENT would have been if Jesus had cancelled the Law out without it's fulfillment taking place. But since it was fulfilled perfectly by HIM, it has not been abolished, it has been fulfilled.

Jesus is our perfect substitute. He took our place by fulfilling the just requirements of the Law for us, and He took our place by taking the just punishment of the Law that was due to us, He took it for us.

He took our sins and gave us His Righteousness. Including the righteousness that He accomplished for us by perfectly keeping the Law in His sinless Life.

Very simple, if you bother to take things in their proper context.
Addendum to last post

When we say that we have to keep the Law that the Bible clearly teaches was fulfilled by Jesus, it is basically saying that His Work is not sufficient for our salvation and not sufficient for us. If we could be justified by the Law, Paul said, then Christ died in vain. Jaybird, you need to rethink your position and ask God to give you wisdom in this matter and submit to His Word.
 

joseph123

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
49
10
8
#77
Macabeus and Adam4Eve are correct. The question is, if Jesus fulfilled all of of the Law, then what is our role? It can't be that it's enough to just accept Jesus into your heart and confess him as Lord. Surely repenting and turning your thoughts and actions toward loving thoughts and actions are required to go to heaven.

I can't really accept that salvation is a one and done kind of thing, where you just accept Jesus and you're safe forever. Why else would Jesus tell the churches to return to their first love in Revelation?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
9,575
4,391
113
#78
Macabeus and Adam4Eve are correct. The question is, if Jesus fulfilled all of of the Law, then what is our role? It can't be that it's enough to just accept Jesus into your heart and confess him as Lord. Surely repenting and turning your thoughts and actions toward loving thoughts and actions are required to go to heaven.

I can't really accept that salvation is a one and done kind of thing, where you just accept Jesus and you're safe forever. Why else would Jesus tell the churches to return to their first love in Revelation?
Repentance is needed as often as the Lord convicts you (or me) of sin... if not more often. At the same time, the Holy Spirit is working in us, conforming us to Christ so that we are decreasingly inclined to sin.

One needs to draw the line between the repentance of initial salvation, and the repentance of a continuing walk with the Lord. In one sense they are the same; in another they are very different. It is uncommon for any of us to deal with all our sin at the time of salvation, even though God deals with all of it in Christ. Rather, we acknowledge sinfulness generally, and the need for a Saviour. As we walk with the Lord through our lives, He will deal with specific issues, patterns, and events, many of which began or took place prior to our salvation. In addressing these, He draws us repeatedly to repentance. He also draws us when we stumble, fail, and resist Him after we are saved.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,933
290
83
#79
Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

The Bible is clear that we have to abstain from sins, and the Lord knows them that are His and they are the ones that hate sin, and do not want sin, and abstain from sin by the Spirit, for that is what seals the saints.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The Bible plainly states that a Spirit led life will not sin, and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able to handle, and will give them an escape so they can bear it.

So there is no excuse.

If a person is led of the Spirit they are not under the law, for their sins are forgiven, and they are abstaining from sin, so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

If we sin we can be forgiven, but we have to have the proper belief that we can abstain from sins, and sin does affect our relationship with God, and get rid of the sin and move forward.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual, so the law has to be obeyed for we are spiritual in the New Testament, which are the laws of love, moral laws which include the ten commandments for they are love towards God, and people, the 2 greatest laws, and love works no ill towards their neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Charity, love in action, is greater than faith, and Paul said charity does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth to abstain from sins by the Spirit.

We have to obey the law which we can do by the Spirit, so it would be required if it is possible to do, where in the flesh we cannot live up to the law, but we can in the Spirit, which is why Paul said we establish the law.

A person is not under the law if they are led of the Spirit, for a Spirit led life will not sin.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But some people say they cannot abstain from sin, so they are holding unto sin, which the Bible says they deny the power thereof, and are ever learning but never able to come to the truth, for they think they are alright with God despite their sins, and they are led of the flesh.

How can they say they cannot abstain from sins when the Bible is clear that by the Spirit we can, and God points out their sins and says they deny the power thereof.

Because not everyone that claims to be with Christ are led of the Spirit, but they think they are, but when they say they cannot abstain from sins, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, it is wrong.

God said He wants all people to be saved, and they say it is not true, but He chose who would be saved, and not saved, so they have no choice but to accept, or reject.

And said we can abstain from sin by the Spirit, but they say they cannot abstain from sin.

Who are these people, and what kind of game are they playing.

I wonder why they do not understand.

Oh that's right, they are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now we understand.
 

joseph123

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
49
10
8
#80
Repentance is needed as often as the Lord convicts you (or me) of sin... if not more often. At the same time, the Holy Spirit is working in us, conforming us to Christ so that we are decreasingly inclined to sin.

One needs to draw the line between the repentance of initial salvation, and the repentance of a continuing walk with the Lord. In one sense they are the same; in another they are very different. It is uncommon for any of us to deal with all our sin at the time of salvation, even though God deals with all of it in Christ. Rather, we acknowledge sinfulness generally, and the need for a Saviour. As we walk with the Lord through our lives, He will deal with specific issues, patterns, and events, many of which began or took place prior to our salvation. In addressing these, He draws us repeatedly to repentance. He also draws us when we stumble, fail, and resist Him after we are saved.
I generally agree with that. We are saved if we turn away from evil ways and choose to embrace only our good nature.