O.T. Circumcision a foreshadow of N.T. Water Baptism

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7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#61
It's in the Word of God:

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism,..." Col 2:11-12

ummm

that is speaking of the circumcision of the heart...made without hands and refers to a 'new' heart that seeks after God and wants to please Him

baptism is SYMBOLIC. it represents our death with Christ and coming out of the water represents our new life IN Him

it seems to me some folks here are conflating what baptism is with what circumcision is.

one is a covenant, in both testaments and the other is a symbol of death and resurrection

circumcision is not death. a bit of a mixup going on IMO
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#62
"Wansvic, post: 3872891, member: 277938"]

The following circumcision commentary is very interesting:
I'm curious which commentary you are quoting from

if you did paste the name, I didn't see it...also did not read all of that very long op...so perhaps I missed it

possible to know which one?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#63
Water baptism was introduced in the New Testament by John the Baptist. His purpose from conception was to proclaim the message of the arrival of Jesus Messiah and introduce water baptism for the remission of sin. This is clearly seen in the gospels, specifically in Luke, and throughout the Book of Acts. And is clearly seen when the church was birthed on the Day of Pentecost.
gee ...no it was not. the Jews had a long history of purification by water. it is so important to understand the symbolism here and I'm sorry, but you are making an error here that actually does not do justice to all the meaning of water and baptism

the use of water for purification goes back to the Mosaic law

“Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: You shall also make a laver of bronze, with its base also of bronze, for washing. You shall put it between the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. And you shall put water in it, for Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet in water from it. When they go into the tabernacle of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister, to burn an offering made by fire to the LORD, they shall wash with water, lest they die. So they shall wash their hands and their feet, lest they die. And it shall be a statute forever to them– to him and his descendants throughout their generations.” Exod 30:17-21

jumping ahead to the time of Jesus, we find that immersion was actually common and the richer Jews actually had what is called a mikveh in which to 'purify' themselves...total immersion

The word “Mikveh”
The Hebrew noun for a ritual bath (mikveh) can help us understand a bit more about the Jewish notion of immersion. Often the Hebrew language reveals keys in the Hebrew thought behind the words. The word mikveh shares the same root as the word for hope (tikvah), for line (kav) and alignment, and the concept of hoping or waiting on God (kiviti l’Adonai).
Here is what Strong’s Lexicon has to say about the word:
מִקְוֶה miqveh, mik-veh’;
something waited for, i.e. confidence (objective or subjective);
also a collection, i.e. (of water) a pond, or (of men and horses) a caravan or drove:—
abiding, gathering together, hope, linen yarn, plenty (of water), pool.
and the same root word:
קָוָה qâvâh, kaw-vaw’;
to bind together (perhaps by twisting), i.e. collect; (figuratively) to expect:—gather (together), look, patiently, tarry, wait (for, on, upon).
The ideas of binding together, or twisting together, of yarn, gives us a good mental picture of what it means to align ourselves with God, and wait for him. We gather ourselves and bind ourselves to his word and to him, we line ourselves up with him, and wait for him in confidence and hope. When you read that the Psalmist says he waits upon the Lord, this is usually the word he is using.
The linked concepts of mikvah (collected pool of water) and tikvah (hope, confidence) are played out beautifully in Jeremiah 17:5-6, where the prophet poetically expresses the ideas through the metaphor of trees either rooted and flourishing beside water when we trust in God, or drying up for the lack of water when we put our trust in man. A few verses later, Jeremiah summarises:
Lord, you are the hope (mikveh) of Israel; all who forsake you will be ashamed (or dried out).
Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.

This is a word play – the text actually says “The Lord is the MIKVEH of Israel, and all who forsake him will be ashamed or dried out!” So it makes more sense now that Jeremiah continues, to say that when we turn away from this mikveh of water and hope, we will be ashamed, which can also be translated “dried out”. Through this word play, Jeremiah deliberately points us back to the analogy of the man who trusts in God being like a tree beside plenty of water, and the one who leaves God ending up in dry, dusty shame.
A “Mikveh” of living water represents the bounty and resources of the new life that we can enjoy in God. Those who put their hope in God, choosing to align their lives with him, will never be dried out, but will always have fresh life in him.
Next time you see someone being immersed in water to signify their new life in Yeshua, the hope of Israel, the mikveh of Israel, call to mind all that he said about being the water of life, the well of living water that springs up to eternal life… because that’s exactly who He is!

SOURCE

the Bible has a rich history of water purification, or 'mikveh' and this absolutely one instance where we must understand and look into Jewish customs in order to better understand the meanings of water symbolism in both testaments

you may also recall that when Jesus' side was pierced by the centurion, water flowed out. the pericardium*, containing water, surrounds the heart and that is where the spear struck...you may also recall He was pierced for our transgressions...(Isaiah)..this is all connected

time to cut loose from traditions and get back to scripture.

*
per·i·car·di·um
/ˌperəˈkärdēəm/
noun
ANATOMY

  1. the membrane enclosing the heart, consisting of an outer fibrous layer and an inner double layer of serous membrane.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#64
It is a matter of obedience to what is stated in the Word of God. Circumcision in the OT, and water baptism in the NT.
Circumcision in the OT, and water baptism in the OT as another ceremonial law .Different purposes assigned to each

One to represent in a parable the suffering beforehand of our suffering bloody husband Christ using Moses to typify Christ. God almost killed him because of his mistreatment of the ceremonial law.

And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.Exodus4: 23-26

The other ceremonial law introducing a new priest in the priesthood. This time both of Arron sons were consumed by fire because they refused to honor what was said but added their own oral tradition of men .

Exodus 35:19The cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest's office.

They unlike Moses were not shown mercy .They as it seem thought they were entitled to add as if the clothes made the Priest .Their ashes were carried out in the ceremonial clothing that did not remain with the stench of fleshly ashes

Leviticus 10 King James Version (KJV) And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,787
1,038
113
#65
ummm

that is speaking of the circumcision of the heart...made without hands and refers to a 'new' heart that seeks after God and wants to please Him

baptism is SYMBOLIC. it represents our death with Christ and coming out of the water represents our new life IN Him

it seems to me some folks here are conflating what baptism is with what circumcision is.

one is a covenant, in both testaments and the other is a symbol of death and resurrection

circumcision is not death. a bit of a mixup going on IMO
Water baptism is a component of the spiritual rebirth just as water is a component of the natural birth.
Concerning the spiritual birth, Jesus says a man cannot SEE the kingdom of God without being born again. And then states what is required to ENTER into the kingdom; mankind must be born of both water and Spirit.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:3-5
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#67
Water baptism is a component of the spiritual rebirth just as water is a component of the natural birth.
Concerning the spiritual birth, Jesus says a man cannot SEE the kingdom of God without being born again. And then states what is required to ENTER into the kingdom; mankind must be born of both water and Spirit.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:3-5

that is not what I responded to you with though

are you going to just ignore the fact you stated John introduced baptism in the NT?

why would you do that?

obviously, from scripture itself, we learn that water cleansing...which baptism represents in the death and resurrection...ie cleansing from all sin through the blood of Christ....so why are you passing over that?

John was not creating a new custom. he was fulfilling the word

it seems you are one of those who believe baptism saves. well it doesn't.

only the blood of Christ saves. baptism is an ordinance, a public confession and illustrates death and resurrection in Christ

why would you ignore that water is a metaphor for this throughout scripture?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#68
Water baptism is not a part of the Old Testament law.
and John did not invent it in the New Testament

water is a part of ritual law for cleansing in the Old Testament

seems you only have a part of the story right

and how about that commentary? are you going to say which one it is? or are you going to hide it
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,787
1,038
113
#69
that is not what I responded to you with though

are you going to just ignore the fact you stated John introduced baptism in the NT?

why would you do that?

obviously, from scripture itself, we learn that water cleansing...which baptism represents in the death and resurrection...ie cleansing from all sin through the blood of Christ....so why are you passing over that?

John was not creating a new custom. he was fulfilling the word

it seems you are one of those who believe baptism saves. well it doesn't.

only the blood of Christ saves. baptism is an ordinance, a public confession and illustrates death and resurrection in Christ

why would you ignore that water is a metaphor for this throughout scripture?
I have been responding to another poster and did not see your previous posts. Will check them out and comment.

As far as this post, I see something different in scripture than you do and share what I see.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,787
1,038
113
#70
I'm curious which commentary you are quoting from

if you did paste the name, I didn't see it...also did not read all of that very long op...so perhaps I missed it

possible to know which one?
"Definition for 'Circumcision' Fausset's Bible Dictionary"
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,787
1,038
113
#72
gee ...no it was not. the Jews had a long history of purification by water. it is so important to understand the symbolism here and I'm sorry, but you are making an error here that actually does not do justice to all the meaning of water and baptism

the use of water for purification goes back to the Mosaic law

“Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: You shall also make a laver of bronze, with its base also of bronze, for washing. You shall put it between the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. And you shall put water in it, for Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet in water from it. When they go into the tabernacle of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister, to burn an offering made by fire to the LORD, they shall wash with water, lest they die. So they shall wash their hands and their feet, lest they die. And it shall be a statute forever to them– to him and his descendants throughout their generations.” Exod 30:17-21

jumping ahead to the time of Jesus, we find that immersion was actually common and the richer Jews actually had what is called a mikveh in which to 'purify' themselves...total immersion

The word “Mikveh”
The Hebrew noun for a ritual bath (mikveh) can help us understand a bit more about the Jewish notion of immersion. Often the Hebrew language reveals keys in the Hebrew thought behind the words. The word mikveh shares the same root as the word for hope (tikvah), for line (kav) and alignment, and the concept of hoping or waiting on God (kiviti l’Adonai).
Here is what Strong’s Lexicon has to say about the word:
מִקְוֶה miqveh, mik-veh’;
something waited for, i.e. confidence (objective or subjective);
also a collection, i.e. (of water) a pond, or (of men and horses) a caravan or drove:—
abiding, gathering together, hope, linen yarn, plenty (of water), pool.
and the same root word:
קָוָה qâvâh, kaw-vaw’;
to bind together (perhaps by twisting), i.e. collect; (figuratively) to expect:—gather (together), look, patiently, tarry, wait (for, on, upon).
The ideas of binding together, or twisting together, of yarn, gives us a good mental picture of what it means to align ourselves with God, and wait for him. We gather ourselves and bind ourselves to his word and to him, we line ourselves up with him, and wait for him in confidence and hope. When you read that the Psalmist says he waits upon the Lord, this is usually the word he is using.
The linked concepts of mikvah (collected pool of water) and tikvah (hope, confidence) are played out beautifully in Jeremiah 17:5-6, where the prophet poetically expresses the ideas through the metaphor of trees either rooted and flourishing beside water when we trust in God, or drying up for the lack of water when we put our trust in man. A few verses later, Jeremiah summarises:
Lord, you are the hope (mikveh) of Israel; all who forsake you will be ashamed (or dried out).
Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.

This is a word play – the text actually says “The Lord is the MIKVEH of Israel, and all who forsake him will be ashamed or dried out!” So it makes more sense now that Jeremiah continues, to say that when we turn away from this mikveh of water and hope, we will be ashamed, which can also be translated “dried out”. Through this word play, Jeremiah deliberately points us back to the analogy of the man who trusts in God being like a tree beside plenty of water, and the one who leaves God ending up in dry, dusty shame.
A “Mikveh” of living water represents the bounty and resources of the new life that we can enjoy in God. Those who put their hope in God, choosing to align their lives with him, will never be dried out, but will always have fresh life in him.
Next time you see someone being immersed in water to signify their new life in Yeshua, the hope of Israel, the mikveh of Israel, call to mind all that he said about being the water of life, the well of living water that springs up to eternal life… because that’s exactly who He is!

SOURCE

the Bible has a rich history of water purification, or 'mikveh' and this absolutely one instance where we must understand and look into Jewish customs in order to better understand the meanings of water symbolism in both testaments

you may also recall that when Jesus' side was pierced by the centurion, water flowed out. the pericardium*, containing water, surrounds the heart and that is where the spear struck...you may also recall He was pierced for our transgressions...(Isaiah)..this is all connected

time to cut loose from traditions and get back to scripture.

*
per·i·car·di·um
/ˌperəˈkärdēəm/
noun
ANATOMY

  1. the membrane enclosing the heart, consisting of an outer fibrous layer and an inner double layer of serous membrane.
There were numerous washings required in the Old Testament law.

I am aware of the history of the Jewish Mikveh and its significance concerning purification. Significant as well is the fact that a bride would have to immerse in the Mikveh in preparation for the arrival of her bridegroom or he would not take her with him when he returned for her. Hint, hint - clue, clue.

John the Baptist introduced the water baptism of repentance for the remission of sin for the New Testament church. The Pharisees bulked at the idea because it deviated from what was their custom.
Also, this new water baptism would have to be done in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, per instructions given on the Day of Pentecost, after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (Acts 19:2-4)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,787
1,038
113
#73
and John did not invent it in the New Testament
John's father was told that his son would: "...give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;" Luke 1:76-77

John was sent to administer the water baptism of repentance by immersion. This practice was never done in the Old Testament:
John 1:33
"And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."

Matt 3:11
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: ..."

Surely Jesus left mankind with an example to follow as He was righteous and sinless:
Jesus told John the Baptist to water baptize Him to fulfill all righteousness:
Matt 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

You mentioned that water baptism was symbolic in a previous post:
If water baptism was symbolic, the Pharisees and Sadducees were wasting their time attempting to submit to John's baptism in order to flee from the wrath to come:
Matt 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#74
I have been responding to another poster and did not see your previous posts. Will check them out and comment.

As far as this post, I see something different in scripture than you do and share what I see.
you directly responded to my post in your post 65

you said John introduced baptism in the NT and I directed you to the fact water was a part of OT ceremonial law and water has always been symbolic of cleansing

John did not introduce baptism

you quoted the post where in I brought that up but you redirected the discussion

I refer you to my post 63

I see in your post above you are trying to explain about that statement regarding John, but do not seem to acknowledge how scripture deals with the meaning from the OT on

it would appear you are stating that baptism is necessary for salvation which I do not agree with


IMO, a person has to leave out some scripture and quote unrelated scriptures to show that doctrine which I do not believe is biblical so prob no further use in continuing
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#75
sorry...I will just respond to this from your post 73

You mentioned that water baptism was symbolic in a previous post:
If water baptism was symbolic, the Pharisees and Sadducees were wasting their time attempting to submit to John's baptism in order to flee from the wrath to come:
Matt 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
well that is an over simplification of what I said. I said far more than that it was just symbolic.

what I actually said, was that water baptism for the Christian is symbolic of death and resurrection. we identify with Christ in water baptism but is not able to save nor does it wash away sin

only the blood of Christ washes away our sins. that is a blood covenant

the religious Jewish sects do not even need to be mentioned

so again, you are not responding to what I actually said and my post 63 addresses several problematical concerns regarding your interpretation and the doctrine of 'baptism is part of salvation'

we are not going to agree; especially if you change what I said
 
Mar 21, 2019
487
163
43
#76
ummm

that is speaking of the circumcision of the heart...made without hands and refers to a 'new' heart that seeks after God and wants to please Him

baptism is SYMBOLIC. it represents our death with Christ and coming out of the water represents our new life IN Him

it seems to me some folks here are conflating what baptism is with what circumcision is.

one is a covenant, in both testaments and the other is a symbol of death and resurrection

circumcision is not death. a bit of a mixup going on IMO
Doesn't circumcision also represent a new (covenant) life in God? Cutting off the sinfulness of the flesh, which would lead to one's death (if left uncircumcised, as nearly happened to Moses), in order to begin life (8th day for a new beginning) as one of God's covenant people?
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,787
1,038
113
#77
and John did not invent it in the New Testament

water is a part of ritual law for cleansing in the Old Testament

seems you only have a part of the story right

and how about that commentary? are you going to say which one it is? or are you going to hide it
John the Baptist introduced the water baptism of repentance for the remission of sin for the New Testament church. The Pharisees bulked at the idea because it deviated from what was their custom.
Also, this new water baptism would have to be done in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, per instructions given on the Day of Pentecost, after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (Acts 19:2-4)
 
Mar 21, 2019
487
163
43
#78
John the Baptist introduced the water baptism of repentance for the remission of sin for the New Testament church. The Pharisees bulked at the idea because it deviated from what was their custom.
John was baptising Jews for repentence, and he scolded the Pharisees because if they were to claim to repent, they should produce fruit in keeping with repentence. John couldn't have baptised for the New Testament church, as his life ended before Jesus rose again.

Matthew 3:7 - 12
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#79
John the Baptist introduced the water baptism of repentance for the remission of sin for the New Testament church. The Pharisees bulked at the idea because it deviated from what was their custom.
Also, this new water baptism would have to be done in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, per instructions given on the Day of Pentecost, after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (Acts 19:2-4)

really? how was John's baptism done in Jesus' name?

there was NO New Testament church during John or Jesus' time

and there was no choir on the shores of the Jordan singing either

SMH :rolleyes:
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#80
Doesn't circumcision also represent a new (covenant) life in God? Cutting off the sinfulness of the flesh, which would lead to one's death (if left uncircumcised, as nearly happened to Moses), in order to begin life (8th day for a new beginning) as one of God's covenant people?
well yeah

in the OT...but we are to have circumcised hearts...always what God was actually after

the OT foreshadows the new and we run into all kinds of trouble when people try to do a mashup of the 2

water baptism represents our death to our old life and coming out of the water represents new life

it is symbolic and not to be confused with a part of salvation as is being done in this thread