Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

PeterJens · Mar 18, 2016

Now you do not want to read what I have written or just choose to ignore it and invent your own version.

Honestly Angela, and you call yourself a scholar. You have gone down in my estimation.

Jesus Justifies as children of God when we are saved. We are forgiven and acceptable, spiritually washed and cleansed.

The whole discussion is about what is sanctification, how do we walk. The church has always held this is walking in righteousness, truth and purity. Like all things it starts faulteringly, but through obedience, love and faith the walk gets stronger.

Now the point being raised is how sin and compromise is accepted as part of this walk.

I know the complexity of peoples states and what the Lord needs to do involves effort, fellowship, counselling, healing, but keeping the faith is crucial.

But with people here of 40+ years christian experience who still do not know what this walk is, and are in defeat everyday, I would suggest there is something missing in their lives. But are you prepared to answer this question?

Because most of you are literally alone, without fellowship support, I doubt other than in private, if you wanted to discover more in the Lord you have anywhere to go. But be honest. The Lord has much more to give you than to date you have recieved. So I encourage you to reach out to Him and ask Him to show you how you can cleanse your heart, open up the love you have, find the place of peace and rest you have so long desired to find.

Jesus can be there for you, why do you hold back?

Grace777x70 · Mar 18, 2016

To some, grace seems to speak mainly of God's overlooking of certain behaviors. while to others. grace speaks mainly of the power to overcome and be victorious over such behaviors.

The Law was a system under which blessings, benefits and benevolence were "conditional" and based upon human obedience and behaviors.

Grace is not primarily the power to overcome sin ( and it does do this..) , nor is it primarily about God's overlooking sin ( which He does do in Christ...).

Grace is primarily about God Himself and the display of His true nature and character, in His infinite love and mercy, stooping low. joining Himself to the human race and freely giving to us that which we absolutely never could have earned or purchased on our own.

Man was intended to be the beneficiary of divine goodness, freely receiving that which his Father freely extended to him. Grace is the return to the place of simplicity and child-like dependence on our loving Father's goodness and love for us.

So, freely receive it, freely live in it and freely give it out.

( this is in one of my journals...can't remember where I got most of this from....)

PeterJens · Mar 18, 2016

Angela53510 said:

Is obeying Christs commands Jesus's benchmark or not?
If I take Jesus's words and read them and apply them I am condemning the church?

Is it wrong to say teaching other than what Jesus taught and the apostles is another faith?

The body of Christ is made up of those who follow Jesus and His commands.

If you are not doing this you are not part of the body. Gods judgement is final. The parables of the wedding feast, of being prepared, of being careful, staying true to the revelation are plain.

The down side is if you fail to do this you have left the faith.

Now this is the shining light in the darkness, this is Jesus and love blazing out in purity and hope, among the sin and failure in peoples lives.

Now I am just repeating the words of the Lord and His closest disciples. If the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin as a result, it is something you need to deal with. That is the work of God in our hearts. It is how we are transformed, how we become children of heaven.

Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.
1 John 2:4

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Matt 5:8

Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 14:24

Now is some perverse way if Christs words are the words of Satan you know you have crossed over to a different kingdom.
It is a choice, bow the knee to Christ and learn His ways in humbleness and grace, or walk the broad way of the world to judgement.

When the Jews killed Jesus and Herod killed John the Baptist, they thought they had victory. True victory is about ultimates and even if everyone opposed me, Jesus's words are still the same and so is the truth which I am called to preach.

PennEd · Mar 18, 2016

nu2see said:

You may be right brother. But these Grace alone vs. Grace PLUS works threads almost always lack love and are full of strife and division. I think about the new CC member or even the Christian, and imagine what they must be thinking seeing such divisions, and worse, become confused and disheartened.
So yes, in one sense ignoring is not the answer. But Love ALWAYS is, and since for the very most part reasoning has failed, ignore might be the most loving thing we can do.

Grace777x70 · Mar 18, 2016

Grace is God through our Lord Jesus Christ expressing His unconditional love and favor to us - independent of anything we ever do or don't do.

The reason why it's so hard to continually live in grace is because from nursery school onward we are taught how to succeed in a world of un-grace.

The real Christian life is not about us "trying to live for Jesus" but it is all about Jesus living in and through us. Failure to understand this simple truth is the root of all legalism and the performance mentality.

The law focuses on the " outer man's " external behavior and tells it what it must do. Grace focuses on the " inner man " and tells it what is already done through Christ in His finished work.

Right believing in Christ alone produces right living which will reflect in the "outer man's" behavior. We need the horse before the cart and not vice versa.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Mar 18, 2016

Angela53510 said:

Yes I have an objection to your first point. I do agree that GOD alone justifies us (forensically) once for all time, but you and others have not answered this.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:21-24

Justified is the exact same word that Paul used in Romans 5:1, except it is in the present tense (is justified, is being justified), not the aorist. We know that James cannot be referring to works of the law because of what Paul said. So unless you don't believe everything the bible says, he must have been talking about another type of work.

Perhaps the works of faith?

This agrees with what the apostles and Jesus said:

But whoever has the world’s material possessions and observes his brother in need and shuts his heart against him, how does the love of God reside in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 1 John 3:17-18

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a ringing brass gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have [the gift of] prophecy and I know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that [I can] remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I parcel out all my possessions, and if I hand over my body in order that I may boast, but do not have love, it benefits [me] nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

What [is] the benefit, my brothers, if someone says [that he] has faith but does not have works? That faith [is] not able to save him? If a brother or a sister is poorly clothed and lacking food for the day, and one of you should say to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but does not give them what is necessary for the body, what [is] the benefit? James 2:14-16

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23

So this whole disagreement appears to be over ambiguous word usage. Whenever you folks see the word works, you can only think in terms of works of law (i.e., trying to be forensically justified).

I will address your other points that I need to later.

PennEd · Mar 18, 2016

Angela53510 said:

Well...

I've spent my breaks studying Greek today trying to get through this thread.

First: Grace vs works-righteousness. AGAIN!! I hold PJ responsible for this thread, since he started with the express stated purpose of slandering EG.

Why slander? Because he doesn't know EG. He doesn't know ember. He doesn't know Grace777. He doesn't know Budman. And he certainly doesn't know me.

Yet his OP says over and over that "they" sin willfully. That "they" don't follow Christ. That "they" etc, etc. He has no idea how any of us live, and whether our live are devoted to following Jesus, which naturally includes obeying God.

Second: With regards to soteriology

The OP is totally clueless as to what the Bible says about salvation, as many have pointed out on this thread (did I read something about missing ANOTHER grace vs works-righteousness thread yesterday? No wonder I have pulled back to study Greek full time.)

Soteriology - how we are saved. And I think I have posted this about 10 times but some people need to hear it again and again and again.... My prayer is that one day God will enlighten the eyes of the hearts of people like PJ and HeRose and they will finally get what people have been saying for several years in this forum, and elsewhere since the NT was written..

Three words:

Justification
Sanctification
Glorification.

PJ and other works -righteousness people like him, get the first two stages mixed up. They somehow thing that you must walk with God to be justified. And that being sanctified justifies them. Not sure how glorification fits into their perverted interpretation of soteriology, but I will just deal with all three.

Justification: "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

" Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith." Gal. 3:11

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8-9

So we are justified not by our own doing but by faith - which is a GIFT of God. Justification is a "once for all time" action by God upon the believer.

People criticize my use of Greek, but although it is right there in the English, the Greek really says it all. Δικαιωθέντες or dikaiothentes is an Aorist Passive Participle. Aorist means that it happened at an undefined moment in the past which is a completed action. Passive means the action is done by God upon the subject. So the first term "justification" is something done by God to us, and completed.

If it is completed, and God did it, then how can we have to do something, (like works!) to be righteous? By the way, righteous comes from the same root as "justification." In other words, we are made righteous by God, which is our justification. So righteous is δίκαιος and justify is δικαιῶσαι (or in this case, this is the infinitive). Fortunately, dikaios is not hard to read in Greek. The letters should be familiar.

So here we have it - God is the one who justifies. Right? Any objections???

"οὓς δὲ προώρισεν, τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν· καὶ οὓς ἐκάλεσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδικαίωσεν· οὓς δὲ ἐδικαίωσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδόξασεν: Romans 8:30

Here we have it again in Romans 8:30. And this is where glorification comes in - God calls, and justifies - a completed action in the past! Edikaiosen or ἐδικαίωσεν is "justified" or "made righteous."

Sanctification - So moving on to the middle term, sanctified. In Greek to "be holy" is to "be sancified." It is the SAME word! This is VERY important! Anyone that says someone is not walking with God, is missing the importance of the fact that it is once again GOD who sanctifies or makes us holy.

"And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" Hebrews 10:10

"ἡγιασμένοι ἐσμὲν διὰ τῆς προσφορᾶς τοῦ σώματος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐφάπαξ." Hebrews 10:10 Greek.

We have been sanctified or ""ἡγιασμένοι ἐσμὲν" or hagiasmenoi esmen, is a periphrastic phrase, meaning that esmen, is from the verb eimi or "to be" in English. The Participle is perfect passive. That means, once again, it is something God does to us, and it emphasizes in this verse, the completed state or condition.

Sanctification is the walk we have with Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Another word that we can use is "transformed." This word only appears 3 times in the NT, so it is very important. It is in the passive tense all three times. The first time it is about Jesus being transformed at the transfiguration. Romans 12:2 has very important implications for this discussion.

"Do not be conformed to this world,but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2

The words "be transformed" in the Greek is one word μεταμορφοῦσθε or metamorphousthe. It is the Present Imperative Passive. It means "to be transformed in your innermost nature BY GOD." IN OTHER WORDS, "let yourselves be transformed by God."

Glorification - technically this word, the noun is not in the Bible. But glorified the is, as we noted see Romans 8:30 above.

"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30

Glorified is the Aorist Indicative Active, and speaks of God who sees the end from the beginning and in whose decree and purpose all future events are fulfilled. In other words, God has said it will happen, and it will. It is not something WE do, but that God has done to us. He already knows who will be glorified, and that is the same people that he pre-destined, called and justified. It is simply never about the individual self.

So Peter and others who are stumbling along the way, the theology is very clear. God justifies, sanctifies and glorifies us. That is salvation!

To say anything else, is to put yourself in the place of God. Only God can change the inner most heart. And by changing us, he helps us to obey him in all good things. And when we fall, he enables us to get back up and follow him.

Over and over and over - until we become conformed to the image of Christ, and one day, when we die, or when Jesus returns, God will glorify us. What a glorious day that will be!

They won't let me rep you Angela, but let me just say this is a POWERFUL post sister! I have read you saying something similar before and the Lord led me to share it with my Bible study group. Thank you, and it's certainly worthwhile to post it from time to time.

PeterJens · Mar 18, 2016

Praise the Lord

Let the Lord judge the peoples. Vindicate me, Lord, according to my righteousness, according to my integrity, O Most High.
Psalm 7:8

Arise, Lord, do not let mortals triumph; let the nations be judged in your presence.
Psalm 9:19

Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns.” The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.
Psalm 96:10

let them sing before the Lord, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity.
Psalm 98:9

Do you hate or love God? Love, then obey His commandments.

I have been accused of lying about what people believe.
I have clearly shown what extreme grace teaches and their lens of approval of parts of scripture and denial of others.

Now the people here who claim allegiance to this theology, are wanting to condemn me as satan, an evil spirit.

Now if I am quoting scripture and its words, talking about what people actually believe and showing how it does not add up, that is God speaking not Satan.

Many cults and religious groups do this trick. Convince people they are right, then stop them thinking by bad mouthing any opposition. Now as an emotional tactic it does work for a time. The problem is truth is still truth. It still breaks through.

Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10

Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart.
Psalm 73:1

This world is becoming more and more obsessed with sex and sexual desire. It is becoming more and more crude in our advertising, music, films, one to one interactions. It invades the internet, peoples minds and behaviour constantly.

People are spending large parts of their lives addicted to porn, gambling, alcohol, even web sites like this.

And when I bring a message of hope, purity and righteousness I am now evil.
You are wondering what a new believer will think, I am thinking where on earth is the church?
This is not the heart beat of those following Christ I am hearing, it is fear, condemnation and failure.

If your heart is not with me on this, then I fear for your walk with Jesus.

FreeNChrist · Mar 18, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

"If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God." Rom 4:2

"Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. " Rom 4:16

eternally-gratefull · Mar 18, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Here we have it in words.

HeRose just admitted he believes in eternal security, or OSAS, however you want to say it.

No, He was not saying that at all. I should have known you would side step the issue, and contradict yourself.

James it making it clear. A person who is a

1. Hearer and not a doer of the word
2. Claims he has faith (he makes the claim, Yes i have faiht in God) But has ZERO ZIP NADA works. Can his faith save him?

Well how can it, It Abraham did not trust God (have faith) he never would have sacrificed his son. But what does scripture say.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, [SUP]18 [/SUP]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

Abraham had faith God could raise his son from thr dead, HE WOULD KEEP HIS PROMISE.. Abrahams faith was proven by the fact he did what he did.

If Abraham had only mere belief, He never would have attempted to sacrifice his son.

Thats what james is saying, if one claimed to have faith, but has no work, his faith is dead, HE IS NOT SAVED..

He is not preaching one can lose salvation, He is telling the truth, If you claim you have faith, but have never worked a day in your life (gods works) your never have been saved.

All those passages prove one thing

Gods children WILL WORK. If you claim your a child of God but do not work, your an impostor. And not saved.

And, No we do not just think of works of the law. Again, you slander us by saying we believe things we do not believe. ALL WORK of God is considered works, Which includes work of the law.

You just want to get rid of works of the law. then condemn us if we say God still holds us accountable by works of the law.

You can not day God justified us once for all time, then claim that justification can be lost..

phil36 · Mar 18, 2016

FreeNChrist said:

And this goes to show that.. Justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone has always been God's way, even to those under the law.

I am not taking sides, but this should be a timely reminder to those who seem to be saying that 'grace' is just a new testament thing..a new covenant thing?

Grace777x70 · Mar 18, 2016

FreeNChrist said:

Amen.....

James is simply stating that real faith will have a corresponding action ( work ).

I noticed that every one of James example - Abraham and Rahab did a "one time" thing to get this "justification". Abraham offered up Isaac and Rahab "received" the spies and sent them off.

James in context was also talking about giving our goods to help our brother out that is in need. Show your love by helping them out. Show your faith by a corresponding action.

As far as justification before God..we did that one time corresponding action that made us sealed by the Holy Spirit.

...one must believe...This is our corresponding response ( work ) for justification before God ...to what we hear ( faith comes by hearing..)

John 6:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

There is a process...first "listen to the message of truth"...then "believe" ..then we are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit in our inner man as the Lord becomes one with our spirit

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

gb9 · Mar 18, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

Here we have it in words.

HeRose just admitted he believes in eternal security, or OSAS, however you want to say it.

No, He was not saying that at all. I should have known you would side step the issue, and contradict yourself.

James it making it clear. A person who is a

1. Hearer and not a doer of the word
2. Claims he has faith (he makes the claim, Yes i have faiht in God) But has ZERO ZIP NADA works. Can his faith save him?

Well how can it, It Abraham did not trust God (have faith) he never would have sacrificed his son. But what does scripture say.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, [SUP]18 [/SUP]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

Abraham had faith God could raise his son from thr dead, HE WOULD KEEP HIS PROMISE.. Abrahams faith was proven by the fact he did what he did.

If Abraham had only mere belief, He never would have attempted to sacrifice his son.

Thats what james is saying, if one claimed to have faith, but has no work, his faith is dead, HE IS NOT SAVED..

He is not preaching one can lose salvation, He is telling the truth, If you claim you have faith, but have never worked a day in your life (gods works) your never have been saved.

All those passages prove one thing

Gods children WILL WORK. If you claim your a child of God but do not work, your an impostor. And not saved.

And, No we do not just think of works of the law. Again, you slander us by saying we believe things we do not believe. ALL WORK of God is considered works, Which includes work of the law.

You just want to get rid of works of the law. then condemn us if we say God still holds us accountable by works of the law.

You can not day God justified us once for all time, then claim that justification can be lost..

great great truths!!! if I could like this 100 times, I would!!

ember · Mar 18, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

yes....Paul goes to an extreme example and I cannot imagine any man reading that without cringing

and that should be an eye opener but like Pharaoh's heart, they keep rejecting the truth

I have known some folks, in other forums, who reject Galatians altogether when the discussion about keeping the law comes up...they will also argue FOR multiple wives and keeping those wives in skirts

How many wives does Christ have at the marriage supper of the Lamb? ONE!

anyway, that's a derail LOL!

the mocking spirit that is so evident and operating with freedom here really and truly needs to go back to Egypt IMO

anyway, it's a new day...off to do Pilates

ember · Mar 18, 2016

well, he's proved his point so many times that many of us actually wonder what cult he follows

your posts are not at all wasted...they are edifying and I know how much you care about the truth

I do not believe in telling another Christian that they are trampling pearls, but in this case, pearls are being trampled

you know what I am saying

phil36 · Mar 18, 2016

I'm quite amazed that all the experts here have not noticed peterjens...belief?

PeterJens · Mar 18, 2016

We are saved because we have believed in Christ and the cross, which never goes away and is the demonstration in all of creation of Gods heart towards mankind.

The reason it is so hard to follow Jesus is because our minds continually dwell on our own hurts and vulnerabilities and not the welfare and needs of those around us.

The real following of Jesus is not about trying to do what believers do, but actually loving those you meet day in day out. It is about cleaning your heart, walking in purity and caring.

Doing things not from the heart is the root of spiritual failure and compromise. Being able to accept rejection when you do things from the heart it is the beginning of spiritual maturity and responding in love to a lost world.

The world focuses on how things appear, the Lord focuses on the reality and love that is at work in your heart and those you interact with. In Christ we bring about eternal change, doing worldly things it is here today and then gone forever.

Grace777x70 · Mar 18, 2016

phil36 said:

Amen....I agree that the Lord dealt with us by grace in the OT....it has always been in the heart of our loving Father to want to deal with us by grace alone. ( see Eph 2:7 )

It looks like for sure the Abrahamic covenant was based on grace alone. If you look at the exodus from Egypt...not one of them was sickly and not one of them were dealt with for any grumbling or complaining while in the dessert until they said " We will do all that You command us to do"...they chose their own self-effort.

Then the Lord brought the law in and 3,000 died at the foot of Mt Sinai. Then they were dealt with the grumbling and complaining after the law was given because then they were being dealt with by the law and not grace.

For sure the whole Law pointed to the Savior that was to come and that New Covenant was by grace alone!

But the law was not God dealing with us by grace...it was Him dealing with us by our own performance but of course the law brought us to our knees. The law was not of faith.....

Galatians 3:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And the law is not of faith: ...

FreeNChrist · Mar 18, 2016

phil36 said:

Please, enlighten us.

PeterJens · Mar 18, 2016

phil36 said:

It is obvious, the objections to their position are not something they ever want to address. They are actually only interested in propoganda and patting each other on the back.

One thing that struck me about talking to muslims is how they did exactly the same behaviour. It is about emotional reinforcement. They also never answered the real questions about what love is, or purity or righteousness.

If this is church, God help the church when judgement falls.

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