Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Perhaps no one refuted it because none of what you wrote truly applies to us .

As a rule, we don't 'run down' anyone. To the contrary, our goal is to build our fellow believers up in who they are in Christ and what that means.

You're taking shots at imaginary people of your own creation, HRFTD.

-JGIG

"We" get accused of being legalists, pharisees, DIYers all of the time around here by "Grace Believers". That's just their modus operandi. It's baked into their teachings. It's an us/them theology.

 

[posthuman]

Here's a visual for you about how Grace is 'administered':



View attachment 145918

\o/

-JGIG

beautiful

reminds me of this psalm --

[video=youtube;u7bDIYwiasg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7bDIYwiasg[/video]

My heart is weary and paper thin
Shallow as rocks in the riverbed
Your heart is deep and it drinks me in
Empty I was before you
Your love is like an ocean, bottomless
I'm sinking like a stone
Only in this water, Father
I will thirst no more
How sweet the merciful song you sing
Wave after wave washing over me
So warm, so pure, so holy
Fills me to overflowing


Whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst.
Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
(John 4:14)​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is enough to make me want to part ways with you, HeRoseFromTheDead -- do you not see what I see?

I don't know what your issue is. "Grace Believers" believe that a person can believe one time and be saved. She is a "Grace Believer". I was rebuking the spirit that tries to make it appear that they believe ongoing faith is required to be saved, whereas in actuality they don't believe that.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In my humble opinion, I think you falsely place people in this "grace group".

Goodbye, PeterJ

We know what we're doing. We've been watching this closely for months. Many of them don't like the label because they don't even know their own beliefs well enough to know that their beliefs correlate strongly, sometimes identically, with "Grace Believer" teachings.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"We" get accused of being legalists, pharisees, DIYers all of the time around here by "Grace Believers". That's just their modus operandi. It's baked into their teachings. It's an us/them theology.

there is a difference.

You do teach what we claim, You show that by your posts and continually posting what we say you believe.

You continually post we believe this, Even though we have never said it, Never claimed to believe it, in fact, Outright deny with reason, that we believe that.

We call you out by the words you say

You call us out by what other people say we believe.

If you called us out by what we say, you MAY have an argument, but you do not.

 

[roaringkitten]

So I trust HTFTD more than the grace group, because they continually deny obvious connections which their position ignores and want to say things all the time which we have not said, and claim we are lying when we repeat their own beliefs.
To me this is not a christian debate, but a propoganda war with people who have sold out.

PJ, do you then agree with hrftd when he said:

You must do the righteous work of abstaining from sin and doing the will of GOD in order to be saved.

In spite of what the Scriptures say:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" Titus 3:5

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't know what your issue is. "Grace Believers" believe that a person can believe one time and be saved. She is a "Grace Believer". I was rebuking the spirit that tries to make it appear that they believe ongoing faith is required to be saved, whereas in actuality they don't believe that.

Thank you, you just proved what I said in post 365..


Please show one person who has claimed this to be true.

You make alot of accusations, Funny how when you are asked to prove them, you never are able to.. I know you have been asked this now by at least two other people. probably more. So why can;t you show proof anyone in here believes this?

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader,

EG confesses the only difference between us in his view is I believe Christ died for our present and past sins and he includes our future sins.

Now for this reason he believes I am not a christian, and spits blood at the idea we could be similar.

Now it is true this is what I believe, I have never hidden it, or lied about it. I have even described EG beliefs correctly and shown that his reason for rejecting my position is because of this belief.

But I must be slandered as evil, a work of satan, an unbeliever who is bringing the Kingdom of Heaven down.

We are reckoned as righteous because of our faith in Christ.
We are forgiven of our sins because we have repented, and continue to repent when we stumble, because of Christs sacrifice on the cross. We are called to walk in righteousness and purity, blamelessly before our God because we have communion with Christ.

Now I have never said anything differently, and I have been open about what EG believes but his anger and hatred consume him and I am the legalist from his past preaching works salvation.

Does it matter what the truth is? Yes because it changes our preaching and what we are calling people to.
Is this a war? Yes, across the christian church this conversation is being repeated with the same arguments being put forward.

It is part of a divorce, which is always messy but ultimately essential. It is always helpful to identify and label where you stand to stop such emotional antagonism. I mean nothing personal by this, and never have.

God bless you EG. May you find the peace you search for in Christ, Amen.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Try doing the same thing over 30X times....there is a massive deception going on or simply being dis-honest...I don't know which one..but whatever it is...it's not from our Lord. It just doesn't make any sense...no matter how many times one says " this is what we are saying.."..they say the complete opposite even after 30x times telling the same thing over and over.

This is why many times these people just need to be left alone in the Lord's hands and to the word of His grace. He will be faithful to them and help them to see the glorious gospel of the grace of Christ alone.

The massive deception is the incessant redefinitions and twistings of biblical words and concepts by "Grace Believers". They are like shape shifters who avoid forthright simplicity by continually redefining word meanings and scripture to suit their own purposes. This is just in line with the gnostic/mystic mindset that words are only approximations of truth, which is to them personal relationship, not doctrine. Words can be redefined to suit the purpose of the moment.

 

[JesusIsAll]

They have Dial-a-Prayer for atheists now. You call up, and it rings and rings, but nobody answers.

 

[PeterJens]

PJ, do you then agree with hrftd when he said:

HeRoseFromTheDead[/B];2530526]
You must do the righteous work of abstaining from sin and doing the will of GOD in order to be saved.

In spite of what the Scriptures say:
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" Titus 3:5

Interesting question.
How the Lord will judge our walk is based on faith, not our righteousness or doing the will of God.
To maintain our faith without having too many contradictions which cause us to loose faith, we need to walk in righteousness and do the will of the Father as far as we perceive it.

We are in the Kingdom of heaven, so saved, so there is not a dependency on behaviour to be saved.
As in all relationships we need to maintain it and be real as Jesus is real.

The point for me is academic. As John says we know we know Christ because we obey the commandments, not we obey the commandments so we know Christ. It is like asking why did the guy save the kid from being run over? Because he saw the need and jumped. It needs to become part of who you are.

So no in the way HRFTD expressed it I do not believe that, but the sentiment of the walk I do agree with.
For me we do not arrive at a verbal definition of what is happening that is complete, just a way of describing the next steps.

 

[Gr8grace]

Thank you, you just proved what I said in post 365..


Please show one person who has claimed this to be true.

You make alot of accusations, Funny how when you are asked to prove them, you never are able to.. I know you have been asked this now by at least two other people. probably more. So why can;t you show proof anyone in here believes this?

I believe it and it is truth. the moment we place our trust in Christs finished work we are SAVED. We can't get out of it, we are bought with a price and we are no longer our own.

Honestly EG, I can't believe you fight with Herose after I saw your interpretation of James.

You basically said exactly what Herose and the other workers for salvation are saying.

If works MUST follow,and we have to constantly stay in the faith...............it is not grace, nor a gift.

 

[JGIG]

"We" get accused of being legalists, pharisees, DIYers all of the time around here by "Grace Believers". That's just their modus operandi. It's baked into their teachings. It's an us/them theology.

If it's 'all the time', then you should have no trouble providing us with evidence of those posts.

Speaking for myself, I've been very careful to simply give a solid, contextual, defense for what I believe, trying to build up you and any other who's reading what I write.

When someone posts an encouraging word about who we are in Christ, and they are on your list of 'those people', we often see where you come along and say, "That's not really what they believe, this is what they believe, and they're really gnostics!" . . . followed by you throwing something out there that we absolutely do not believe. Then we are left to either let your false accusations stand, or choose to refute the falsehoods and defend and explain again and again and again what we do believe. That's one reason some of these threads go on and on and on . . .

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The massive deception is the incessant redefinitions and twistings of biblical words and concepts by "Grace Believers". They are like shape shifters who avoid forthright simplicity by continually redefining word meanings and scripture to suit their own purposes. This is just in line with the gnostic/mystic mindset that words are only approximations of truth, which is to them personal relationship, not doctrine. Words can be redefined to suit the purpose of the moment.

No, HRFTD, that is not true. Properly defining Biblical terms and concepts is not REdefining or twisting Biblical terms and concepts.

You rarely just make your case and let the reader decide; you find it necessary to slander (labeling them as gnostics/mystics) the believers here who are simply teaching the Good News of Christ, His Work, what that actually accomplished, and who we are in Him.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

beautiful

reminds me of this psalm --

[video=youtube;u7bDIYwiasg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7bDIYwiasg[/video]

My heart is weary and paper thin
Shallow as rocks in the riverbed
Your heart is deep and it drinks me in
Empty I was before you
Your love is like an ocean, bottomless
I'm sinking like a stone
Only in this water, Father
I will thirst no more
How sweet the merciful song you sing
Wave after wave washing over me
So warm, so pure, so holy
Fills me to overflowing


Whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst.
Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
(John 4:14)​

Very nice.

And isn't it funny that Jesus told us that whoever drinks the water He gives will never thirst . . . yet so many in the Body tell us that we must hunger and thirst after Him?

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

If it's 'all the time', then you should have no trouble providing us with evidence of those posts.

If grace7x77 is the DIY poster. Everytime someone says righteousness or purity or blameless, he loves to drag out his DIY post.

If you do not believe me ask him. And the crowd gladly jump on and like it.
So this is a simple conclusion. If you think we are lying of grace7x77 does not admit he does this I will spend the time showing you, but it will prove nothing other than we are telling the truth.

Saying we are lying is a slander that is unfortunate and is miss applied 99% of the time, so please do not doubt our integrity because of what people say. We are not demon possessed but sincere believers who have come to certain conclusions before the Lord and are just sharing them. But then maybe you do not believe me?

 

[phil36]

Just to recap on what PeterJ actually believes...

PeterJens

Senior Member

Join DateFebruary 24th, 2015Age56Posts3,680Blog Entries1Rep Power19

[h=2]

Re: Where the apostles righteous - John the Baptist sinless?[/h]

To be honest all we know is our own sin and the fact we do not measure up.
The point I am making is though we can say all sin it is just applying by faith a verse.
Equally if Jesus says we can walk righteously and not sin, that that equally should be true.

The point we are making is the doctrine of original sin and inability is a gnostic doctrine and not scriptual.
Jesus came that we might be free, but gnostic orginal sin says no.

Now ofcourse the apostles sinned before they met Jesus, but after they were clean? Peter implies he could walk righteously.
Now awareness of this walk is almost irrelevent, because love does not take pride in its state, it is dedicated to serve and meet needs. If you do not believe Jesus brought victory to the human soul you will not even try.

This is why there is a problem with hyper-grace saying we are forgiven no matter how we behave and morals do not matter.
It is also why christians sometimes behave worse than sinners because they believe they are forgiven.​

There a couple of things to note. The first is that in denying original sin he aligns himself with what the church has always declared heretical. This is part of the reason he comes to the conclusions he doe's through his Pelagian glasses. HeRose does the same thing.

Secondly, He equates walking in righteousness as being already perfected now (glorified). And thats how he can say what he says about the belivers walk.

I would agree that 'hyper/exagerated grace types are in error...but you all know that already lol. I would also agree that in Christ we are victors, and righteouss. but that not of ourselves, only in the completed work of Jesus.

Some major points we need to think about.

When we talk about 'works' what actually do we mean (Now I am refering to the christian here not the unregenerate)?

When Paul refers to 'works of the Law' what works is he refering to? This is a very important question especialy in light of the NP on Pauline theology over the last 30 or so years.



I think we will soon realise that alot of the arguments here are mute when we can honestly answer the above questions.... remember the 2 questions above are not refering to non christians and how one is saved, but directly to christians as Paul wrote.

 

[JGIG]

I don't know what your issue is. "Grace Believers" believe that a person can believe one time and be saved. She is a "Grace Believer". I was rebuking the spirit that tries to make it appear that they believe ongoing faith is required to be saved, whereas in actuality they don't believe that.

It is not 'ongoing faith' by which we are saved. It is by receiving/believing/putting our faith in the Work of Christ by which we are saved. That IS a one time event! At that point we are made a New Creation, Born into the family of God in Christ, and then sealed with the Holy Spirit, Who guarantees our redemption for the Glory of the Father. This cannot be undone through lapses of faith, and when a believer is properly fed and watered in the Word, their faith won't lapse!

Sadly, there are many walking wounded believers out there who have believed what some preach here: That they must do certain things to maintain their salvation or they will be eternally condemned. And ironically, it is the putting of that yoke on young/immature believers that stunts their growth and hinders the Fruit of the Spirit in their lives. They are taught to focus on self, where the Good News is that we are to focus on Christ - He is the Perfector of our faith \o/!

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

No, HRFTD, that is not true. Properly defining Biblical terms and concepts is not REdefining or twisting Biblical terms and concepts.
You rarely just make your case and let the reader decide; you find it necessary to slander (labeling them as gnostics/mystics) the believers here who are simply teaching the Good News of Christ, His Work, what that actually accomplished, and who we are in Him.
-JGIG

Being fair HRFTD is expressing his point of view and giving a summary of why he disagrees with a certain interpretation of a verse or scripture.

Now you may not agree with him, but that is a valid expression of a feeling. When people say I am lying about what they are saying they believe, and when they describe what they believe it is actually what I have said, shows them up that they are just slagging someone off and not being honest. The problem is in this forum people are scared of declaring ones own position as if it is dangerous.

If you are a gnostic, aetheist, grace believer, believer in traditional points of view, dispensationalist, just share that point of view. You may persuade others or you may be persuaded differently. What is wrong is when people think propoganda will rule the day, because on an open forum over time the truth comes out. I am not afraid of the truth, it is always my friend in Christ. "I am the way, the truth and the life"

Do you guys believe this, or is this something else you want to hide away somewhere?

 

[Grace777x70]

It is not 'ongoing faith' by which we are saved. It is by receiving/believing/putting our faith in the Work of Christ by which we are saved. That IS a one time event! At that point we are made a New Creation, Born into the family of God in Christ, and then sealed with the Holy Spirit, Who guarantees our redemption for the Glory of the Father. This cannot be undone through lapses of faith, and when a believer is properly fed and watered in the Word, their faith won't lapse!

Sadly, there are many walking wounded believers out there who have believed what some preach here: That they must do certain things to maintain their salvation or they will be eternally condemned. And ironically, it is the putting of that yoke on young/immature believers that stunts their growth and hinders the Fruit of the Spirit in their lives. They are taught to focus on self, where the Good News is that we are to focus on Christ - He is the Perfector of our faith \o/!

-JGIG

Yes...well said....

The grace of God is conditional...as you say one must believe...

There is a process...first "listen to the message of truth"...then "believe" ..then we are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit in our inner man as the Lord becomes one with our spirit

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,


Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.