Observations on the Book of Life

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Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#81
You have been clearly shown 4-5 times in this thread, with multiple scriptures presented, this earth is dissolved by fire at the Lords second coming Appearance, there will be no mortal human kingdom on earth beyond this.

(Rule Them With A Rod Of Iron)?

This means nothing more than destruction of the wicked at the Lords second coming at the battle of Armageddon, the wicked will be destroyed,as a potter destroys his clay vessel

Dispensationalism (Falsely) try's to suggest this is Jesus Christ sitting on a earthly throne ruling, (A LIE)
The meek shall inherit the earth. David's throne is on earth not in heaven. The Messiah already sits on heavens throne as soon as he took His blood there.

I don't understand what the issue is to be honest. I mean sure, disagree with different eschatological views, but tossing out accusations of "false teachings" seems extreme.

To rule someone means to destroy them in an instant? And then you've still not addressed Daniel 7:11-12 or now Zechariah 14:17-19.

You use the Lords words below (Heathen) as if the unsaved heathen is present in the (Eternal Kingdom)?

The Scripture clearly shows the feast of tabernacles is a requirement in the (Eternal Kingdom) and it's a requirement for (All Nations) and the word (IF) clearly shows that this hast happened, but (IF) it were to happen, then that person or group would be as the heathen.

Zechariah 14:17-19KJV
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Ok thanks Truth7t7, but I just can't agree..
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#82
The meek shall inherit the earth. David's throne is on earth not in heaven. The Messiah already sits on heavens throne as soon as he took His blood there.

I don't understand what the issue is to be honest. I mean sure, disagree with different eschatological views, but tossing out accusations of "false teachings" seems extreme.

To rule someone means to destroy them in an instant? And then you've still not addressed Daniel 7:11-12 or now Zechariah 14:17-19.

Ok thanks Truth7t7, but I just can't agree..
I'm stating (Dispensationalism) that you and many others follow is false, you dont stand alone in its false teaching.

The words below in Zechariah 14:16 states that (Every One) of the nations left will go up to observe the feast of tabernacles in Jerusalem, (Every One)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Only the saved Nations will enter the New Jerusalem seen in Zecharah 14:16 to observe the feast of tabernacles, only those who are written in the Lambs Book Of Life, (Every One) in the Nations will be saved in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem seen in Zechariah 14:16

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,077
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#83
Your premise is strongly suspect. Whether you take Revelation 20 metaphorically or literally, there is a 1,000 year reign. In the time, literal or metaphorical, Satan will be bound and there will be dead men. What you have to do is give your reasons for assigning a metaphorical value to the 1,000 years. It is mentioned SIX times in 5 verses - THREE times as "A thousand years", and THREE times as "THE thousand years". If Satan, Christ, His throne are all literal, this is just another proof that the 1,000 years is literal.

Then, independent of that problem, you have to deal with my arguments.

And finally, if you look closely at your proffered verses, not one of them addresses the Book of Life.
BUT, a 1000 year reign is not mentioned once, anywhere else in the Bible. Therefore, it's meaning is limited to Rev 20, and is likely not literal. To make this giant, unbiblical doctrine that appears in only ONE chapter of the Bible means it is simply not true. Another invention of men with a preconceived idea, putting it into (eisegesis eis = In) the Bible, rather than taking it out of the Bible, exegesis ex = out! Such bad hermeneutics!
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
3,478
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#84
The meek shall inherit the earth. David's throne is on earth not in heaven. The Messiah already sits on heavens throne as soon as he took His blood there.

I don't understand what the issue is to be honest. I mean sure, disagree with different eschatological views, but tossing out accusations of "false teachings" seems extreme.

To rule someone means to destroy them in an instant? And then you've still not addressed Daniel 7:11-12 or now Zechariah 14:17-19.



Ok thanks Truth7t7, but I just can't agree..
You QUOTE Daniel 7:11-12?

The verses in context show nothing more than the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ in Fire And Final Judgement, As I Stated all along.

Daniel 7:10-11KJV
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 9:27 below shows the beast/antichrist is present on earth until the End/Consumation, he will make Jerusalem desolate to (The End)(Consumation)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
3,478
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#85
BUT, a 1000 year reign is not mentioned once, anywhere else in the Bible. Therefore, it's meaning is limited to Rev 20, and is likely not literal. To make this giant, unbiblical doctrine that appears in only ONE chapter of the Bible means it is simply not true. Another invention of men with a preconceived idea, putting it into (eisegesis eis = In) the Bible, rather than taking it out of the Bible, exegesis ex = out! Such bad hermeneutics!
I agree 100%

Not only do they claim the word (Thousand Years) is literal upon this physical earth, they use these verses to represent a Kingdom on this earth with mortal humans present?

Where below do you see a Kingdom on this Earth with humans present?

You Don't, And They Continue To Teach Fairy Tales, Were Off To See The Wizard :giggle:

Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% in the spiritual realm, Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
16,972
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#86
Observations on the Book of Life

The Book of Life presents the contemporary student of scripture with a problem. To first see this problem, we have to investigate resurrection. According to 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 the resurrection of the body of man follows a strict sequence. The sequence is; (i) Christ first, then (ii) “those who are His at His coming”, and finally an “end” where death is defeated by all men being resurrected (as verse 22 says, and seeing as all men proceed from Adam). Searching further into this matter brings to light a sold confirmation of this sequence.
  1. Christ was resurrected in about 30 AD
  2. The Church will be resurrected “at His Coming” - His “Presence” in the clouds (1st Thess.4:14-17)
  3. Israel will be resurrected at His “Revealing” from the clouds (Danl12:2; Matt.24:31; Ezek.37)
  4. Revelation 20 then informs us that 1,000 years go by and then “the rest of the dead” are resurrected.
The problem is this; There will be no Christians at the resurrection and judgment of “the rest of the dead” since they were ALL resurrected “at His coming” 1,000 years before. Why then is the Book of Life presented at this judgment of the “rest of the dead”?

Further, it is to be observed that whenever this Book appears in scripture, it is always connected TO WORKS. In;

Exodus 32:33, “… the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” It is WORKS that get a Jew banned from it. Implied also is the fact that he must already be in it to be blotted out.

Psalm 69:27-28, “Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” It is again WORKS (iniquity) that gets a man blotted out of this Book. Implied again, is that he must be in it from some earlier point.

Philippians 4:3, “And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.” “yokefellow”, “labor” and “fellow-laborer” is all about WORKS. Here it is openly stated that they are already in it.

Revelation 3:5, “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” Here, the Lord talks to Christians. Implied is (i) that they are in the book, but (ii) can be blotted out. And here again WORKS are required

Revelation 13:8, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Here it plainly states that some people are not written in this Book from the beginning. Again, WORKS cause this. “Worship” is something one DOES.

Revelation 20:12, “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Here, the whole plot is confirmed. These are unbelievers, their WORKS are in view, and SOME are written IN the Book and SOME not. Their judgment is based on other Books of their WORKS.

There is a modern saying; A good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't know the answer to. So I do admit having studied this subject, and I do have an already formed opinion. But I still propose, for discussion, the fact that;
  1. The Book of Life is a decider on WORKS
  2. The Book of Life does not have to do with HAVING eternal life (which is had by faith - Jn.3:14-16)
  3. Whether Christian, or Jew, or Gentile, SOME are in this Book from the beginning - and can be cast out, and SOME can be written in - based on WORKS
Ok but I have a problem because this is assuming that the 1,000 year reign is actually understood. Also perhaps I am not remembering correctly but I don't recall three separate ressurections within the time frame of revelation. Also the book of life is not about works even if it was only for those who are left behind to go through the tribulation it celarly says that it is by them enduring until the end refusing the mark and many will even have to die for their faith it says nothing about what works will get you into the book of life.

Also the book of life itself has all the names that will be saved from damnation it clearly says that all who are not found in it will be thrown into the pit of hell so yes the book of life is in fact about eternal salvation.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#87
Also the book of life itself has all the names that will be saved from damnation it clearly says that all who are not found in it will be thrown into the pit of hell so yes the book of life is in fact about eternal salvation.
Correction: Hell and those not found in the book of life will be cast into the Lake Of Fire, this is the eternal second death.

Revelation 20:13-15KJV
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
1,853
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#88
I'm stating (Dispensationalism) that you and many others follow is false, you dont stand alone in its false teaching.

The words below in Zechariah 14:16 states that (Every One) of the nations left will go up to observe the feast of tabernacles in Jerusalem, (Every One)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Only the saved Nations will enter the New Jerusalem seen in Zechariah 14:16 to observe the feast of tabernacles, only those who are written in the Lambs Book Of Life, (Every One) in the Nations will be saved in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem seen in Zechariah 14:16

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
You QUOTE Daniel 7:11-12?

The verses in context show nothing more than the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ in Fire And Final Judgement, As I Stated all along.

Daniel 7:10-11KJV
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 9:27 below shows the beast/antichrist is present on earth until the End/Consumation, he will make Jerusalem desolate to (The End)(Consumation)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Zechariah 14-17 says that if any heathen from the nations doesn't come up they will be PUNISHED by not receive any rain. You then highlighted "if". Heathan as defined in the scripture means "pagan", not a believer. The very notion of even a possibility of disobedience and punishment flies in the face of everyone being an immortally transformed being who have the law written in their hearts.

Disobedience is SIN. You're trying to tell me that the immortal righteous of the kingdom will be called heathen and sin? Come on.

I'm trying to be gracious here but bluntly put you're trying to force-fit the scriptures into your view while omitting the verses that don't fit. Stop omitting verse 12. Let's keep the context then...


Daniel 7:10-12 (not just to 11)
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


Daniel gives the order:

1) Fiery stream; books of judgment (second coming)

2) Fourth Beast is slain and given to the burning flame (Armageddon)

3) The rest of the beasts had their dominion taken away but were left alive for a time


It the same exact order in Revelation 19 & 20:

1) The Rider on the White Horse; King of Kings

2) The beast and false prophet are cast into the fire and their army slain

3) Righteous rule the nations with Christ 1000 years while satan is cast into the pit for a time


It's the same exact order in Zechariah 14:1-19

1) The day of the Lord comes...

2) The curse (of fire) will consume eyes and tongues

3) Any of the heathen - who remains of the nations - must come to Jerusalem to celebrate tabernacles or will be punished with no rain.


These are three witnesses point for point, nothing was added and nothing was taken away.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
16,972
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#89
Correction: Hell and those not found in the book of life will be cast into the Lake Of Fire, this is the eternal second death.

Revelation 20:13-15KJV
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Yes thank you for that
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
3,478
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#90
1) The day of the Lord comes...
2) The curse (of fire) will consume eyes and tongues
3) Any of the heathen - who remains of the nations - must come to Jerusalem to celebrate tabernacles or will be punished with no rain.
You willfully ignore the Lords fire at his return,destroying (All The Heathens) and claim they survive this judgement (False), you run from this truth without argument, why?

1 Corinthians 3:13 (Every man's work) is Judged By This Fire, (Every) not (Some)

Luke 17:29-30 (Destroyed Them All) not (Destroyed Some)

Nahum 1:5 (All That Dwell On Earth) not (Some That Dwell On Earth)

As Zech 14:16 clearly states below

2.) Fact: Zech 14:16 (Everyone That Is Left, Shall Even Go Up) there won't be any that won't go up, a fact read it again and again.


Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

2 Peter 3:10-12KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,
what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
1,853
375
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#91
Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
1) I increased the font size of your quote so you can see it. These weren't allies or friendlies...but literally, those who remained of the nations who attacked Jerusalem.

2) The text says these are HEATHENS. Accept the text for what it says. So not all heathens will be destroyed. Revelation 19 says the army, the beast and the false prophet are destroyed. Says nothing about the ordinary citizens. Accept the text for what it says.

3) "SHALL"...does not mean WILL.

"Thou SHALL have no other Gods before me," is a commandment not a statement of fact. The heathens will be COMMANDED to go up, hence the PUNISHMENT that follows for not going up (i.e. no rain). Accept the text for what it says.


1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Let's finish the passage.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


There will be those who barely get through, saved through the fire.


Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Nothing wrong with any of this. Let's continue...


Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Let's finish the passage...

Malachi 3:2-4
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.


The fire shall purify.


Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

2 Peter 3:10-12KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,
what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
I increased the font size so you can see it. This is in perfect agreement with the ENTIRE passage of 1 Corinthians 3:13-15. Works will be burnt up...tried by fire...and for those found wanting they'll barely be saved as yet through fire.


Here are a few more for you...

Philippians 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Every. It's about rule.


Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.


Every. It's about rule.


Psalm 110:1
A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


The enemies of the living God are going to submit.


Isaiah 60:14
The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.


At ^Zion^; at the city of the Lord they shall do this. Again, here's another clear reference to enemies of the holy people submitting to them in the end-times kingdom.

------

Truth7t7, it's about getting the nations of the earth to submit to the supreme authority of the living God and His Messiah, not just wiping them out. That's not a win. A win is getting the unruly world to yield to True Power, Himself.

But first, the power that man trusts in (weapons, armies, tech, money, etc) must be proven as absolutely nothing. All they rely upon will be burned to nothing once they use it to attack the King of Kings and His army. And what will be left is the heathen citizen face to face with The Christ and the truth that was always in the scriptures. And they will be given one last chance to yield to it and live in submission to Him if they want to survive.


 

Corban

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2020
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#92
BUT, a 1000 year reign is not mentioned once, anywhere else in the Bible. Therefore, it's meaning is limited to Rev 20, and is likely not literal. To make this giant, unbiblical doctrine that appears in only ONE chapter of the Bible means it is simply not true. Another invention of men with a preconceived idea, putting it into (eisegesis eis = In) the Bible, rather than taking it out of the Bible, exegesis ex = out! Such bad hermeneutics!
OK. You have an argument. You discard the 3 X mention of "A thousand years" and the 3 X mention of "THE thousand years" within 5 verses. But you give no reason for that. You say it is "likely not literal". On what basis? What is is your argument for "likely"? I am aware that the article does not appear in the original texts, but both the Greek and the English IMPLY the article. This is confirmed by nearly every translator - experts in language - inserting it. And we both know that the article modifies the noun.

Next, within Revelation 20:1-15, the student of scripture finds, among other things, (i) an angel, (ii) heaven, (iii) the Devil, (iv) Satan, (v) cast, (vi) the nations, (vii) souls, (viii) beheaded, (ix) the witness of Jesus, (x) the Word of God, and (xi) lived. Now, you have made a judgment on Hermeneutics. Is it not true in "sound Hermeneutics" that within a sentence, if you apply an allegorical or metaphorical meaning to one object, you are bound to apply the same rule to the next object(s) of that sentence? And is it not true of "sound Hermeneutics" that it is the procedure used for a passage, or text, that is obscure and needs a meaning to be found for it? But every single one of the eleven things I posted above has a literal record and needs no interpretation. Why suddenly make one of them allegorical?

Finally, the thousand years IS found in other passages.
  1. The first and simplest is that the Kingdom of God is "everlasting". So by default, there will be a first thousand years.
  2. Now, God's command to man when He made man, was that he was to first SUBDUE and then RULE the earth. And from the time of Christ's return till the White Throne, whatever value one gives, is a time of SUBDUING (1st Cor.15:22-28). So there is a period of SUBDUING, before "all things are put under Him". Revelation Chapter 20 gives that as a thousand years. But if this number is taken metaphorically, as you suggest, it still has a value in years. What is is then, if not a thousand years?
  3. Next, Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 predict a future Sabbath Rest. And God's anger is directed at two groups. (i) Those who fell in the wilderness and never entered the Good Land, and (ii) those who did enter the Good Land but could not stay there. God says that the occupancy of the Good Land should have been His Rest. And although students of the Bible differ on the number of years from Joshua crossing the Jordan to the deportation of Judah to Babylon, all student agree that it was just short of a thousand years. That is, God Himself defines His Rest as around 1,000 years.
  4. But this is not all. In "sound Hermeneutics" you are, I'm sure, aware of the "Principle of First Mention". Now, the six days in which God restored the earth to receive His man, Adam, God defines by "the evening and the morning" - the Biblical, and Jewish solar day of 24 hours, sunset to sunset. But altogether decisive is that the greatest mind of the universe, Who no doubt has calculated every "jot and tittle" of the wording of His great Book, left out the TIME OF THE SEVENTH DAY - the Day of His "REST". But this same Great Mind, gave us another calculation. He warned Adam that if he ate from the forbidden Tree, he would die IN that Day. Now, Adam lived for 930 years and died✳︎. So if we are particular and accurate with God's Words, taking them as they are, Adam was made last on the sixth 24-hour period, and so his first full day would have been the SEVENTH. The Seventh is not defined by sunset to sunset, but by Adam's life - just short of 1,000 years. The First Sabbath Rest is defined as a period WITHIN Adam died.
  5. But there is more. The structure of scripture is known to be heptadic. And once again scholars are not united in exact figures, but agree that from Adam to Christ was exactly, or almost exactly, 4,000 years. And Acts 15:14-16 gives the time for Israel's restoration as when the Church is completed. But Hosea 6:2 gives the same time as "2 days". Thus, if we interpret scripture with scripture (for private interpretation is forbidden - 2nd Pet.1.20), there is only 1 day that two of them could possibly fit the Church age - 2,000 years (Ps.90:4, 2nd Pet.3:8). Thus, Adam to Christ's first advent is 4,000 years, or 4 days, and the Church age is 2,000 years, or 2 days. Thus, a precedent is set for the future REST in Hebrews 3 and 4. The future Sabbath Rest must be 1,000 years - giving the total fr God's full restoration as 7 - 1,000 year days.
If you are trained in Hermenuetics, you will know all these points above. And while any one may not stand by itself to establish this "giant doctrine", I think that all of them TOGETHER make a strong argument for a literal 1,000 years.

Now it is up to you, to set the value on the 1,000 years of Revelation 20, and to justify your use of metaphor for just one of nearly twenty literal things in the passage. Or, of course, like I had to many years ago, you can revise your opinion. Either way - God bless.

✳︎ It is proffered by some that Adam died "spiritually". This is private interpretation. Here's why.
  1. It does not say, anywhere in scripture, that he died spiritually
  2. The wages of sin is physical death (Rom.5:12, 6:23)
  3. A spirit cannot die. There is no record of a spirit dying in the whole Bible
  4. If Adam died spiritually, it presupposes that he had spiritual life (to lose). But he had not eaten from the Tree of Life
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#93
Nothing wrong with any of this. Let's continue...
(Real Big Smiles) Dance, Wiggle, And Run (y)

We will focus on just the one verse you run from, and didnt answer, Luke 17:29-30 (Destroyed Them All)

You dont want to see all the unsaved destroyed, because your teaching goes down the drain.

(Destroyed Them All, Not Some)

Nobody Escaped Gods Wrath In Sodom or Gomorrah, nobody!

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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#94
1) I increased the font size of your quote so you can see it. These weren't allies or friendlies...but literally, those who remained of the nations who attacked Jerusalem.

2) The text says these are HEATHENS. Accept the text for what it says. So not all heathens will be destroyed. Revelation 19 says the army, the beast and the false prophet are destroyed. Says nothing about the ordinary citizens. Accept the text for what it says.
Gods word clearly explains those left of the Nations are the (Saved) righteous Rev 21:24

Are there Christian in Nations that will come against Jerusalem, 100% yes, they Are the survivors, the unsaved wicked are consumed by the Lords fire.

Revelation 21:24KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#95
(Real Big Smiles) Dance, Wiggle, And Run (y)

We will focus on just the one verse you run from, and didnt answer, Luke 17:29-30 (Destroyed Them All)

You dont want to see all the unsaved destroyed, because your teaching goes down the drain.

(Destroyed Them All, Not Some)

Nobody Escaped Gods Wrath In Sodom or Gomorrah, nobody!

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Are you really saying this in a bible discussion forum??

So one witness trumps ALL the other witnesses I shared including several of your own passages?? That's not even proper for secular debate.

Which makes more sense: to have a group of witnesses confirm the one's meaning or to have one witness discount the many?

The Messiah's point was regarding the suddenness of the son of man being revealed, this is why I had no problem with the passage.


Luke 17:20
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.



^WORKS BURNT UP^ 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 again.


32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


A man seeking to keep his life (i.e. his STUFF) will lose it. Works burnt up.


34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



One will live, one will die. Not all are destroyed. Text.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#96
3) "SHALL"...does not mean WILL.

"Thou SHALL have no other Gods before me," is a commandment not a statement of fact. The heathens will be COMMANDED to go up, hence the PUNISHMENT that follows for not going up (i.e. no rain). Accept the text for what it says.
The word (Shall) used in Zechariah 14:16 is a factual statement, everyone is going up to Jerusalem, no question, might, could, probably, but (Shall)

Just as (Shall) used in Revelation 14:9-10 below, its gonna happen

(Prophetic) It Shall Come To Pass, Everyone Shall Even Go Up

Zechariah 14:16KJV

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Revelation 14:9-10KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb
 

Corban

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Jun 11, 2020
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#97
Ok but I have a problem because this is assuming that the 1,000 year reign is actually understood. Also perhaps I am not remembering correctly but I don't recall three separate ressurections within the time frame of revelation. Also the book of life is not about works even if it was only for those who are left behind to go through the tribulation it celarly says that it is by them enduring until the end refusing the mark and many will even have to die for their faith it says nothing about what works will get you into the book of life.

Also the book of life itself has all the names that will be saved from damnation it clearly says that all who are not found in it will be thrown into the pit of hell so yes the book of life is in fact about eternal salvation.
OK brother, you have made several statements above, but not given a single scripture. Most of your points are documented by scripture in my OP. But one argument of yours is valid. It is assumed that the 1,000 years is literal? To this I reply that the Chapter contains over twenty things, like "witness of Jesus", "beheaded", "Word of God" and "Satan". These are all taken literally without argument. Why seek out just one of them and say it is not literal. See my previous argument for more proofs (posting # 92).

As to to three resurrections within the time frame of Revelation, I will outline six ...
  1. Christ's resurrection. He was wounded to death, but in Chapter 1:7 he will be seen alive as He comes out of the clouds
  2. The resurrection of the Beast. He was, is not and will come out of the pit. He is one of five, but number 8 as well
  3. The resurrection of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11
  4. The resurrection of the Overcomers of Revelation 14:1-5
  5. The resurrection of those "beheaded" of Revelation 20 before the thousand years. Verse 4 says "they lived"
  6. The resurrection of "the rest of the dead" after the thousand years
Then, if you like, outside of Revelation, you can add the resurrection of Elijah's time, that of Elisha's time, the resurrection of he who touches Elisha's bones and at least three resurrections by Jesus Christ during His first advent. Then comes the resurrection of Jesus Himself, followed a few minutes later by those of Matthew 27:52. And then also comes those resurrected by Peter and Paul. Then comes the resurrection of the Church in 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17, and then the resurrection of Israel AFTER the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2). And then, if you like, you can take Matthew 13 as true. It say that the end of the age is a harvest. A harvest, in the Bible (Lev.23) and in nature has THREE reapings - (i) the firstfruits, (ii) the general harvest, and (iii) the gleanings.

All in all, scripture shows nearly 20 resurrections.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#98
Gods word clearly explains those left of the Nations are the (Saved) righteous Rev 21:24

Are there Christian in Nations that will come against Jerusalem, 100% yes, they Are the survivors, the unsaved wicked are consumed by the Lords fire.

Revelation 21:24KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
I thought Christians, believers, were already taken to be with the Lord, as you've been saying. How are there still Christian survivors in the nations during the war of Armageddon?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#99
The word (Shall) used in Zechariah 14:16 is a factual statement, everyone is going up to Jerusalem, no question, might, could, probably, but (Shall)

Just as (Shall) used in Revelation 14:9-10 below, its gonna happen

(Prophetic) It Shall Come To Pass, Everyone Shall Even Go Up

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Revelation 14:9-10KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb
Ok let's follow your rules of interpretation.


Zechariah 14:18
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So by your interpretation of "shall" , in the kingdom where - as you've been saying - there are only believers, you're saying there will definitely be believers who suffer plagues? No question, right?
 

Mak33

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Nov 12, 2019
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While I have a different belief on the sequence, I'd still like to answer...



The rulers of the new age will be those believers alive along with those believers once dead now alive...all transformed.



Yes, i believe it is a mixture of believers and "non believers". Not necessarily "enemies", but those who weren't sure where they stood as well as those who didn't get their worship just right and those who grew up completely ignorant of truth. These are they who will be ruled/taught.

The nations will still be here, but the beast will be destroyed while satan is imprisoned.

Daniel 7:11-12 explains...

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time


So the fourth beast is destroyed. The rest of the beasts = the rest of the nations whose lives will be prolonged. This is the millennium being described.

But at some point afterwards these folks will make their decision who they stand for (as satan is released to deceive and as the unrighteous are resurrected). Then the final final army against the holy people is gathered...and wiped out.

My take on things.
Great, just what I thought, Thank you for that, what's your event sequence if you don't mind? Thanks