Obsession with Confession (1 John 1:9, sin confession)

[KennethC]

Many people here are missing the point of what God is saying in the Scriptures. God knows because of our sin nature everybody will still sin because of the nature we have and God has given us a way out of our sins by confessing them to Jesus Christ.

Does this mean we are to continue in our sins? No.

Its not about the sins we commit because we are weak, its all about the sins we willing commit that God is talking about. Its the sins we practice that God is talking about in the Scriptures.

Galatians 5:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice here God says those who practice these sins will not enter into Heaven. Practice means to willingly do it over and over again with no intention to stop. This is what God hates. He does know we will fall and commit sin, but, He does not want us to continually do these sins just from habit.

1 John 1:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Clearly here God does say we do sin everyday. Everybody sins everyday. This is not the problem. The problem is there are those who see nothing wrong with practicing their sin daily. This is what God wants us to stop doing. Its these sins that God the Holy Spirit will help us in controlling and walking away from.

The whole point is we do sin and will continue to sin until we die,BUT, we are not to think its all right to continue in our sins just because we do sin. God wants us to make an effort with the help of the Holy Spirit to stop sinning willingly!

I agree with everything you have said except with your last part of the rendering of 1 John 1:10, as that in no way supports everyday continuous sinning unless you read that into that scripture.

If that supported everyday continuous sinning then the scriptures from Jesus, Paul, Jame, and John all stating that we no longer commit sin would be just a suggestion and not a command. But Jesus commanded to go and sin no more, and Paul multiple times says we abstain, put off, and no longer continue in sin.

Also Apostle John follows up right after that, "I right these things so that you may not sin, and if."

John says if not when meaning continuing to sin is a possibility but not a definite, so if everyday sinning is supported then John would have said when we sin; not if we sin !!!

We do sin but the Holy Spirit sent to us will guide, help, and strengthen us where we are weak to help refrain from sinning !!!

 

[FreeNChrist]

Many people here are missing the point of what God is saying in the Scriptures. God knows because of our sin nature everybody will still sin because of the nature we have and God has given us a way out of our sins by confessing them to Jesus Christ.

Does this mean we are to continue in our sins? No.

Its not about the sins we commit because we are weak, its all about the sins we willing commit that God is talking about. Its the sins we practice that God is talking about in the Scriptures.

Galatians 5:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice here God says those who practice these sins will not enter into Heaven. Practice means to willingly do it over and over again with no intention to stop. This is what God hates. He does know we will fall and commit sin, but, He does not want us to continually do these sins just from habit.

1 John 1:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Clearly here God does say we do sin everyday. Everybody sins everyday. This is not the problem. The problem is there are those who see nothing wrong with practicing their sin daily. This is what God wants us to stop doing. Its these sins that God the Holy Spirit will help us in controlling and walking away from.

The whole point is we do sin and will continue to sin until we die,BUT, we are not to think its all right to continue in our sins just because we do sin. God wants us to make an effort with the help of the Holy Spirit to stop sinning willingly!

I don't know any Christians who see nothing wrong with practicing their sin daily, or who think its alright to continue in our sins just because we do sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with everything you have said except with your last part of the rendering of 1 John 1:10, as that in no way supports everyday continuous sinning unless you read that into that scripture.

If that supported everyday continuous sinning then the scriptures from Jesus, Paul, Jame, and John all stating that we no longer commit sin would be just a suggestion and not a command. But Jesus commanded to go and sin no more, and Paul multiple times says we abstain, put off, and no longer continue in sin.

Also Apostle John follows up right after that, "I right these things so that you may not sin, and if."

John says if not when meaning continuing to sin is a possibility but not a definite, so if everyday sinning is supported then John would have said when we sin; not if we sin !!!

We do sin but the Holy Spirit sent to us will guide, help, and strengthen us where we are weak to help refrain from sinning !!!

I fear that even if you are saved, you would never reach spiritual maturity, If we can not come to God realising how unworthy we are. And we can not understand Gods grace, and he loves us unconditionally as we are.. knowing our flaws. Then we will live a life of fear. and not learn in love.

1 John 4:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. [SUP]18 [/SUP]There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. [SUP]19 [/SUP]We love Him[SUP][b][/SUP] because He first loved us.

One can not love who has not recieved the unconditional love of God. One who can not love, can not grow in Christ. For they are continually in sin (failing to love as God loved us).

 

[KennethC]

I fear that even if you are saved, you would never reach spiritual maturity, If we can not come to God realising how unworthy we are. And we can not understand Gods grace, and he loves us unconditionally as we are.. knowing our flaws. Then we will live a life of fear. and not learn in love.

1 John 4:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. [SUP]18 [/SUP]There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. [SUP]19 [/SUP]We love Him[SUP][b][/SUP] because He first loved us.

One can not love who has not recieved the unconditional love of God. One who can not love, can not grow in Christ. For they are continually in sin (failing to love as God loved us).

Why do you keep speaking on a before born again nature ???

For the only references in the bible that speak of being unworthy, and can not understand God's grace is before one is born again.

If a person is living in fear and think things are still impossible and a burden then that shows that person is not born again, because the Word of God gives plenty of examples to let a person know (have confidence) that they do have eternal life abiding in them. Those examples are shown by how one presents themselves in their walk in the faith.

Born again believers do not fear who walk by the Spirit do not fear, have confidence, and trust in all of the Lord.

Just because one preaches on the warnings to believers like Paul did, which I follow his example, does not mean we live in fear. It is to edify the body to get them to come to maturity in the faith so those things become no longer a issue for them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do you keep speaking on a before born again nature ???

For the only references in the bible that speak of being unworthy, and can not understand God's grace is before one is born again.

If a person is living in fear and think things are still impossible and a burden then that shows that person is not born again, because the Word of God gives plenty of examples to let a person know (have confidence) that they do have eternal life abiding in them. Those examples are shown by how one presents themselves in their walk in the faith.

Born again believers do not fear who walk by the Spirit do not fear, have confidence, and trust in all of the Lord.

Just because one preaches on the warnings to believers like Paul did, which I follow his example, does not mean we live in fear. It is to edify the body to get them to come to maturity in the faith so those things become no longer a issue for them.

One who believes they can lose salvation, that salvation can be lost. and that God may ot keep his promise of eternal life must live in fear. if they say they do not. they are in denial.

One who believes eternal life is eternal. is securied only in Christ, and sealed forever by the Holy Spirit has no reason to fear. for he has entered the rest of God, and nothing can break him (as long as he remembers his first love, and does not let satan get into his head and let self and legalism creep back into his life) which he will do more and more if he grown in Christ, where things of this world will appear as momentary light afflictions. Because this life is so short. and eternity and Gods love is forever. Nothing can phase us.

I am not trying to be mean my friend, I am just trying to be realistic.

 

[KennethC]

One who believes they can lose salvation, that salvation can be lost. and that God may ot keep his promise of eternal life must live in fear. if they say they do not. they are in denial.

One who believes eternal life is eternal. is securied only in Christ, and sealed forever by the Holy Spirit has no reason to fear. for he has entered the rest of God, and nothing can break him (as long as he remembers his first love, and does not let satan get into his head and let self and legalism creep back into his life) which he will do more and more if he grown in Christ, where things of this world will appear as momentary light afflictions. Because this life is so short. and eternity and Gods love is forever. Nothing can phase us.

I am not trying to be mean my friend, I am just trying to be realistic.

Well you would be wrong as I am not living in fear nor am I an denial !!!

But I do preach that those who are weak in the faith can still fall back to perdition and not end up with eternal life because the bible (Word of God) clearly teaches this.

Even God Himself says a couple times that He will strike somebodies name from the Book of Life, to have your name in the that book means you have eternal life. But being removed from it means they no longer do !!!

Do you believe how you walk in the faith matters for salvation ???

If you say no then you have just canceled out half of what Apostle Paul said, and did away with the whole 1st epistle of John. For that is exactly what John was speaking on how we can have assurance that we have eternal life abiding in us by our actions/walk in the faith.

 

[MikeHenderson]

You still miss the point KennethC. Those who are weak in the Faith will still enter into Heaven.

Revelation 3:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] ' He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will noterase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.

God says those who overcomes, not those who stop sinning. We can NEVER lose our Salvation by sinning because Salvation is received by Faith and Grace!

Tell me KennethC by which sin we do that will take away our Salvation? By what sin do we do the takes away our Justification?

Romans 3:28
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 5:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

We have been Justified by Jesus and we cannot lose our Justification!

What you do not understand KennethC is God is greater than us! Being weak in the Faith does not mean a person cannot enter into Heaven. Its those who continue in their sins and refuse to stop them will never enter into Heaven.

Those who continue to bow down to a statue of Mary and pray and Worship Mary are the ones who will never enter into Heaven.

Romans 7:14
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Romans 7:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me.

Romans 7:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

You need to understand we will still sin because we are still in the flesh. Its the flesh that sins, not us. But if you willingly sin then its you who are sinning. This is the point God is making. We will sin because the flesh still sins, but we are not to practice our sins because then we are sinning willingly.

It has nothing to do with how great or how weak our Faith is.

Romans 14:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

Romans 14:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.

 

[KennethC]

You still miss the point KennethC. Those who are weak in the Faith will still enter into Heaven.

Revelation 3:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] ' He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will noterase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.

God says those who overcomes, not those who stop sinning. We can NEVER lose our Salvation by sinning because Salvation is received by Faith and Grace!

Tell me KennethC by which sin we do that will take away our Salvation? By what sin do we do the takes away our Justification?

Romans 3:28
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 5:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

We have been Justified by Jesus and we cannot lose our Justification!

What you do not understand KennethC is God is greater than us! Being weak in the Faith does not mean a person cannot enter into Heaven. Its those who continue in their sins and refuse to stop them will never enter into Heaven.

Those who continue to bow down to a statue of Mary and pray and Worship Mary are the ones who will never enter into Heaven.

Romans 7:14
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Romans 7:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me.

Romans 7:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

You need to understand we will still sin because we are still in the flesh. Its the flesh that sins, not us. But if you willingly sin then its you who are sinning. This is the point God is making. We will sin because the flesh still sins, but we are not to practice our sins because then we are sinning willingly.

It has nothing to do with how great or how weak our Faith is.

Romans 14:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

Romans 14:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.

I see you overlooked 1 Corinthians 8:11 where Apostle Paul says a weak brother can still perish !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well you would be wrong as I am not living in fear nor am I an denial !!!

But I do preach that those who are weak in the faith can still fall back to perdition and not end up with eternal life because the bible (Word of God) clearly teaches this.

lol. Jesus said faiht of a mustard sead can move mountains, You ever seen how small a mustard seed is?

How can someone who has participated and felt the true love of God ever get to faith which is less than a mustard seed.

if you say you do not live in fear. I must wonder how not, Your salvation is based on what you may or may not do. That is not a very secure faith or salvation in my point.

Even God Himself says a couple times that He will strike somebodies name from the Book of Life, to have your name in the that book means you have eternal life. But being removed from it means they no longer do !!!

Everyone is born with their name in the book of life. Jesus paid the penalty of sin for all. so all get a clean slate.

It is those who die in denial (lack of faith) who will have their names removed,

Do you believe how you walk in the faith matters for salvation ???

Jesus died 2000 years ago. He did not consider how I walked today back then a matter in my salvation, why would he consider what I do from now until the day I die matters? He knew everything I would ever doe the moment he died, how else could he die for my personal sin?

If how I walk does matter, then salvation is not of faith, but of works. and scripture is a lie and paul did not know what he was talking about, and jesus himself was a fraud. and is still dead.

If you say no then you have just canceled out half of what Apostle Paul said, and did away with the whole 1st epistle of John. For that is exactly what John was speaking on how we can have assurance that we have eternal life abiding in us by our actions/walk in the faith.

You just cause Jesus to contrdict himself. Everything Paul said in the first 2 chapters of ephesians to be a lie. And even peter to be a liar.

Your basing your eternal destination based on what you do. thus you preach a gospel of works. Deny it all you want. You just proved it.

 

[KennethC]

lol. Jesus said faiht of a mustard sead can move mountains, You ever seen how small a mustard seed is?

How can someone who has participated and felt the true love of God ever get to faith which is less than a mustard seed.

if you say you do not live in fear. I must wonder how not, Your salvation is based on what you may or may not do. That is not a very secure faith or salvation in my point.



Everyone is born with their name in the book of life. Jesus paid the penalty of sin for all. so all get a clean slate.

It is those who die in denial (lack of faith) who will have their names removed,

Jesus died 2000 years ago. He did not consider how I walked today back then a matter in my salvation, why would he consider what I do from now until the day I die matters? He knew everything I would ever doe the moment he died, how else could he die for my personal sin?

If how I walk does matter, then salvation is not of faith, but of works. and scripture is a lie and paul did not know what he was talking about, and jesus himself was a fraud. and is still dead.


You just cause Jesus to contrdict himself. Everything Paul said in the first 2 chapters of ephesians to be a lie. And even peter to be a liar.

Your basing your eternal destination based on what you do. thus you preach a gospel of works. Deny it all you want. You just proved it.

*Things Children of God Can Do: (These are spoken to believers)


1. Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13


2. Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17


3. Err from the truth - James 5:19-20


4. Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11


5. Fall into condemnation - James 5:12


6. Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23


7. Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1


8. Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12


9. Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27


10. Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14


Also can have their name removed from the Book of Life - Exodus 32:33, Psalm 69:28, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 22:19.

 

[Mec99]

You all miss the point that KennethC is teaching Catholic Doctrines. Its the false Christians who believe they can lose their Salvation by sinning.

Did you receive your Salvation by not sinning? NO!

We received our Salvation by Faith in Jesus Christ and by the Grace of God!

The ONLY way to lose our Salvation is by denying that Jesus Christ is God. This is the ONLY way to lose our Salvation.

You cannot not and never will lose your Salvation by sinning.

Show us where in the Scriptures that God has said if we sin we lose our Salvation KennethC?

This is what the Catholics teach and this is what the False Brothers teach!

 

[Mec99]

Ephesians 1:3-8
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight

We HAVE been Chosen by God long before He created anything that we True Christians WILL receive Salvation. How can we lose our Salvation if God HAD Predestined us to receive Salvation and He HAD chosen us to be in Him?

Only those who have never received Salvation are the ones who think they can lose their Salvation by sinning. Therefore its you KennethC who have NOT be chosen by God and have NOT been Predestined to receive Salvation!

This is why you believe and teach the false Doctrines from the Catholic Church that we can lose our Salvation by sinning.

Its people like you who fight against God because you actually believe you are better than God. Its your PRIDE that is doing you in. Its because of your PRIDE that i believe is why you were never CHOSEN by God to be His Child.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Therefore its you KennethC who have NOT be chosen by God and have NOT been Predestined to receive Salvation!

Ouch man,, Don't judge, We can not say if Ken will ever come to truth and be saved or not.. To say he is not chosen would be judging his eternal life. And thats not right.

Saul was a pharisee of pharisees. Yet became Paul and wrote most of the NT. There is hope for Ken as long as he is alive.

 

[Mec99]

We can judge a person if he has or has not received Salvation. We cannot judge a person for his sins, that is up yo God. But we can know where a person is coming from by the Fruits of that person!

Matthew 7:15-20
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

We can Judge Ken by his Fruits.

 

[FreeNChrist]

We can judge a person if he has or has not received Salvation. We cannot judge a person for his sins, that is up yo God. But we can know where a person is coming from by the Fruits of that person!

Matthew 7:15-20
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

We can Judge Ken by his Fruits.

I believe you have that backwards. What we cannot judge is a person's salvation, that is solely God's domain. Christians can be deceived, and still be Christians...they will just miss out on the "much more" of their salvation. We are all at differing stages in our walk. God isn't finished with any of us yet.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We can judge a person if he has or has not received Salvation. We cannot judge a person for his sins, that is up yo God. But we can know where a person is coming from by the Fruits of that person!

Matthew 7:15-20
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

We can Judge Ken by his Fruits.

1. How can you judge Ken by his fruit, You have never met him.
2. How can you judge his salvation. You do not know his heart. (are you now God)

 

[Mec99]

I can see where his heart is by what he says and I have the Gift of Discernment.

The spiritual gift of discernment is also known as the gift of "discernment of spirits" or "distinguishing between spirits." The Greek word for the gift of discernment is Diakrisis. The word describes being able to distinguish, discern, judge or appraise a person, statement, situation, or environment. In the New Testament it describes the ability to distinguish between spirits as in 1 Cor. 12:10, and to discern good and evil as in Hebrews 5:14.

The Holy Spirit gives the gift of discernment to enable certain Christians to clearly recognize and distinguish between the influence of God, Satan, the world, and the flesh in a given situation. The church needs those with this gift to warn believers in times of danger or keep them from being led astray by false teaching.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can see where his heart is by what he says and I have the Gift of Discernment.

The spiritual gift of discernment is also known as the gift of "discernment of spirits" or "distinguishing between spirits." The Greek word for the gift of discernment is Diakrisis. The word describes being able to distinguish, discern, judge or appraise a person, statement, situation, or environment. In the New Testament it describes the ability to distinguish between spirits as in 1 Cor. 12:10, and to discern good and evil as in Hebrews 5:14.

The Holy Spirit gives the gift of discernment to enable certain Christians to clearly recognize and distinguish between the influence of God, Satan, the world, and the flesh in a given situation. The church needs those with this gift to warn believers in times of danger or keep them from being led astray by false teaching.

alot of self in here, Thats disturbing..

 

[Mec99]

What is disturbing is there are a lot of Christians here who do not know what God says in the Scriptures and are easily misled by Satan into believing lies from him.

Have you EVER made a study on the Gifts from the Holy Spirit?

So now you are condemning me for studying the Scriptures and pointing out the false Doctrines from the World?

I really feel sorry for you.

I do NOT need to meet a person to see the fruits he is producing. All i need to do is listen to what the Holy Spirit says and compare it to what Ken says.

Either you follow the Truth from God or you listen to deceiving Spirits. Its up to you. As for me i will keep on studying the Word of God and continue to point out the false Doctrines from the World.

 

[dalconn]

You cant be deceived and be a Christian, that notion denies that the Holy Spirit draws and guides us into all truth. One must remember that we can be wrong for a season but the truly saved will not stay there as one cannot spiritually mature living in error.