Ok I have one scripture for the sinless

[Skinski7]

Actually the point of the similitude I presented in the money was more about trying to show the balance of sin after being forgiven. But why argue with a know it all eh?

It is not about knowing it all.

It is a fact that Penal Substitution is a doctrine probably taught in 99% of protestant church congregations today. Anytime you say "Jesus paid your fine" then many people hearing that are going to mentally connect that to the Penal message they hear each Sunday. Is that what you wish to do? Reaffirm their delusion that all their sins, past, present and future are all paid for? A penalty that cannot be made due again? Thus an understanding that they can sin and not surely die?

Is this an issue of "debating with a know it all" or is it possible that I am trying to point something out to you that is extremely dangerous of which you lack discernment?

Penal Substitution is a deadly teaching to believe and that doctrine is leading millions of souls to eternal ruin.

 

[Skinski7]

Is this what you want to uphold?

[video=youtube;6IPvV-hNY_4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPvV-hNY_4[/video]

It is a total perversion of the Gospel.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

The sin He is referring to is the sin of rejecting Jesus, and receiving the Holy Spirit, ALL other sins, past, present and future, have been paid for by the blood of Christ.

I haven't read these silly threads about people, saved or not, NOT sinning. Are you really trying to tell me you have lived a perfect, sinless life since accepting Jesus? You never lied, you never failed to come to a complete stop at a stop sign, you never went a single mile over the speed limit, you never said a curse word, you never looked at a beautiful woman and had an unclean thought in life or on tv, you never had an angry word or thought about someone, I could go on and on but if you say you NEVER sin any more I feel sorry for you. THAT is an incredibly dangerous place to be.

Yes...since I was born again...the real me who is less than 2 hours old has not sinned. I also am from heaven...am not jew or gentile, bond or free, am not male or female, have the same Father as all of my family, and do not know my real name yet. I am a stranger/alien to this world...and homeless as long as I am in this temporary tent.

Is that language foriegn to you?

 

[Blain]

Ya this thread was obviously a bad idea

 

[Jeff_56]

a little child may not know nor care what penal substitution is , or any other 'doctrine' concocted by so-called scholars,

and regardless of the error of it, or any truth in such ,

a little child who trusts the father to accomplish their salvation and everything connected to it,
relying on JESUS FAITHFULNESS and not anything otherwise,

can rest in the GOOD SHEPHERD'S CARE and GUIDANCE, dwelling with HIM personally, abiding in HIM all

the time, listening with great joy and amazement and gratitude

to HIM WHO saves their life forever..... hanging on EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS from the mouth of YAHWEH,

literally oblivious , thankfully, to the silly and fatal arguments of men and doctrines.....

yes, but not to take it lightly either, as others might fall for heresies , dangerous and deadly, like the rcc and others,

not knowing or seemingly not willing or able to escape it, thus ending the life they could have had... forever gone,

unless yahweh intervenes according to and in line with HIS WORD, and saves them from the errors and the heresy.

i.e. the heresy, each and every one of them, IS LIFE AND DEATH FOR MANY--- not a game. not to be ignored
like a dead mouse under the toilet , carrying bubonic plague.

rather expose all the damnable works of darkness for what they are,

and continue bringing the LIGHT, SHINING AS A LIGHT in the darkness, proclaiming every day GOD'S WORD of SALVATION to ALL WHO WILL HEAR and to ALL WHO WON'T HEAR,

so that none may have an excuse
and their blood won't be upon us for allowing them to slip away in death without warning.

woe to those who laugh now, for their laughter will be turned to mourning.

woe to those who are comforted now, for they have received their comfort in this life.

TODAY, harden not your heart as they did in the rebellion. TURN to GOD, so HE may heal YOU ALL (rcc and any other unbelievers lost in their sin, wallowing in deception).

GOD takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. (You /anywhere/ who are lost, Turn to be saved. Don't go to sleep until you repent and call on JESUS to spare your wretched life.)

 

[Jeff_56]

Ya this thread was obviously a bad idea

all the threads are in the same boat. don't lose any sleep over it,

but pray that someone , somewhere , may be helped. time is short. judgment is at hand.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

Having sin in the flesh is different than the spirit.
I am not my flesh...even as Jesus said I will never die. When I was born again...my identity is from heaven...not here.
I do not sin...but have sin in the flesh until it is also completely removed/refined out/purged.

Romans 7 combined with the following passage confirms the two separate identities.


1 John 3:8-10Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8*He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9*Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10*In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Jesus did not lie when He said the those who live and believe in Him will never die.

Romans 8:4-6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

4*that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5*For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6*For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

It is not about knowing it all.

It is a fact that Penal Substitution is a doctrine probably taught in 99% of protestant church congregations today. Anytime you say "Jesus paid your fine" then many people hearing that are going to mentally connect that to the Penal message they hear each Sunday. Is that what you wish to do? Reaffirm their delusion that all their sins, past, present and future are all paid for? A penalty that cannot be made due again? Thus an understanding that they can sin and not surely die?

Is this an issue of "debating with a know it all" or is it possible that I am trying to point something out to you that is extremely dangerous of which you lack discernment?

Penal Substitution is a deadly teaching to believe and that doctrine is leading millions of souls to eternal ruin.

Dude, I compared sin to money and used the word "paid" to show something in a similitude. I'm not preaching "Penal Substitution", nor do I even follow the doctrines of men. But if I want to compare something to something else, and use the word "paid" in it, why am I being accused of preaching false doctrine? Good grief!

Some of you folks need to get off your intellectual high horses before the Lord knocks you off! How's that for a comparison? Did I use the right word there? Lord help us.

Isaiah 29:21
That make a man an offender for a word, .....

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Grace is not a license to keep sinning and confessing. Many false teachers subtly imply that it is such a license and we are warned of this in the Bible.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The context of 1Joh 1:7-10 is of a once and for all cleansing of ALL sin and ALL unrighteousness whereby we "keep the commandments and walk as He walked (1Joh 2:3-6).

People will snip 1Joh 1:9 from its context and use to teach the sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent cycle that many believe.

Carefully read the passage...

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now compare it to the cleansing mentioned here...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

To willfully sin after having been cleansed is to despise the Spirit of grace. We are warned against doing that. This is why we are not to pray for someone who sins unto death. Sinning unto death is an act of rebelliohey n for it is the willful turning from the light. God will not work with someone who does that, that person needs to repent and yield to God. There is no forgiveness in rebellion. There is only no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus whom walk after the Spirit (Rom 8:1).

Many people want to believe in a forgiveness IN sin. If one is abiding in Jesus then one cannot possibly be sinning because Jesus does not lead us to sin. We have to forsake Christ in turning away from Him in order to sin and that is what the condemnation is, ie. a rejection of light.

So if a person has received Grace then they would not want to commit sin and they walk in the light as he is in the light and if they are wilfully sinning then they are not forgiven but it sounds like you are saying that you are forgiven for sinning without having to ask for it as long as you are walking in the light is that what you are saying?

 

[PeterJens]

There is a simple problem here and the word is perfection. If I say perfection is walking in grace with love in my heart, then I am perfect. If I say perfection is not breaking this rule book, then I am perfect up to the point I break one of the rules.
After that action, am I perfect again until I fail? Or is perfection being transformed so you behave in such a way that you do not break the rules, but you never quite understand why, because you have been changed.

We are called not to judge one another, but what you can say is obvious sin is not acceptable. There is a real linguistic problem that if Jesus commanded people to stop sinning there is the obvious concept that this was possible.

In some points in my life I have felt totally condemned by the phrase, "Be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect" Surely this is impossible. But as you delve deeper you realise Gods view of perfection is not ours.

I have read one brother calling another brother preaching a doctrine of satan, when the reality is these are different perspectives of an unclear concept. The best we can say is we are struggling with these issues, but on that day when we meet Jesus face to face it will be clear. If I doubted Jesus's love and forgiveness of me, why would I walk with him? If I thought sin could not capture my soul and condemn me as lost, how can I believe I am not just a robot, obeying programming. But language by its nature are summaries of ideas and balances, and can never completely get it all in one set of ideas. The one place I know is safe is at the foot of the cross, in humbleness and knowing I am very fragile, and need as much help as I can receive.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Ya this thread was obviously a bad idea

Really. Would think you'd know by now this is where the gospel of Jesus Christ, that a child can understand, gets shredded.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Grace is not a license to keep sinning and confessing. Many false teachers subtly imply that it is such a license and we are warned of this in the Bible. Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. The context of 1Joh 1:7-10 is of a once and for all cleansing of ALL sin and ALL unrighteousness whereby we "keep the commandments and walk as He walked (1Joh 2:3-6). People will snip 1Joh 1:9 from its context and use to teach the sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent cycle that many believe. Carefully read the passage... 1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Now compare it to the cleansing mentioned here... Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God; Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? To willfully sin after having been cleansed is to despise the Spirit of grace. We are warned against doing that. This is why we are not to pray for someone who sins unto death. Sinning unto death is an act of rebellion for it is the willful turning from the light. God will not work with someone who does that, that person needs to repent and yield to God. There is no forgiveness in rebellion. There is only no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus whom walk after the Spirit (Rom 8:1). Many people want to believe in a forgiveness IN sin. If one is abiding in Jesus then one cannot possibly be sinning because Jesus does not lead us to sin. We have to forsake Christ in turning away from Him in order to sin and that is what the condemnation is, ie. a rejection of light.

So if a person has received Grace then they would not want to commit sin and they walk in the light as he is in the light and if they are wilfully sinning then they are not forgiven but it sounds like you are saying that you are forgiven for sinning without having to ask for it as long as you are walking in the light is that what you are saying?

Let me ask a little better if I can.
Are you saying that when we were born again we were forgiven of the sin nature and any sins that we commit that are not wilful sins are forgiven to those that walk in the light as he is in the light and we don't need to ask forgiveness for sins of ignorance but once we ask forgiveness for the sin nature that GOD doesn't hold our (sins)against us?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

And also I wanted to say when it comes to wilful sin wouldn't gluttony be a willful sin?

In James it says that if you offend the law (GOD's standard of perfection) at any point, then you have offended the whole law and when it comes to overeating a person can go to an all you can eat buffet and eat so much that they can't breath good but in order for a person to gain 100 pounds they would have to overeat habitually.

Isn't that wilful sin?

Someone might say that's not a bad sin.

Maybe man would think that but to GOD sin is sin.

So then it sounds like people consider some sins ok and others wilful and rebellious.

 

[kennethcadwell]

That is not what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that mercy is conditioned on both confession and the forsaking of sin.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

If one is still engaged in rebellion to God then they are still a rebel even though they might claim to be "struggling." Worldly sorrow leads to "struggle" because the root of the problem is not addressed. It is only godly sorrow which works a repentance unto salvation.

One cannot be "struggling" with child molestation or pornography/masturbation and have confidence they will be forgiven. The sin has to stop and it stops through the genuine repentance experience.

The issue today is that genuine repentance is seldom taught due to the notion of "inability" implied through the "born a sinner" doctrine. Thus people are compelled to approach God as victims who "cannot help it" and then WAIT on God to effect the change. This is one way Satan can keep people in the service of sin and have them thinking they will be forgiven.

God only effects change when we submit wholeheartedly to Him. The wild horse must be broken before it will submit to a rider. God wants to ride us but we have to cease throwing God off. Godly sorrow produces this...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

1. Carefulness.
2. Clearing of wrong doing.
3. Indignation over sin.
4. Fear of God.
5. Vehement desire to do right.
6. A zealousness for righteousness.
7. Revenge against sin.

In all things we prove ourselves CLEAR or PURE in regards to the sin. The sin has stopped. Repentance is the change of mind that takes place where we truly agree with God about sin, righteousness and judgement and the result is a total forsaking of rebellion and a wholehearted yielding. God then regenerates us by His Spirit and we are raised up and empowered whereby we can maintain a walk in victory over the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

To teach anyone that they merely have to "ask for forgiveness" whilst they keep sinning is a teaching of the devil. Don't fall for it. Such a teaching gives people an excuse to keep sinning whilst they wait on God to make them cease from their rebellion.

Sin unto death is this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin Unto Death is the OPPOSITE of Obedience Unto Righteousness.

Therefore...

Sin Unto Death = Disobedience Unto Unrighteousness.

If we use the example of an individual who is "struggling" with pornography even though they desire to stop. That person has not truly repented yet. They have not crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24), they have not crucified their old man whereby the body of sin is destroyed (Rom 6:6). They have therefore not ceased from sin. They are in bondage and need to be set free.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We cannot serve both sin and righteousness. It is one or the other. Peter wrote...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

If we are genuine Christians then we no longer live the rest of our time in the flesh to the lusts of men. Rather we live to the will of God, hence we have ceased from sin.

Very simple stuff that the Bible clearly teaches. The problem with many people is they don't want to stop sinning and thus don't want to hear a message which states that they have to.

It is not living a rebellious lifestyle if the person has confessed the sin (petitioned) for forgiveness, but are still struggling to stop committing it. Not everybody or should I say nobody completely stops sinning from minute one when they are born again.
The bible shows it is a molding process the Lord does in our life to help us to turn from those sins, some do and can get stopped right away but others take a little time. To say a person is living in rebellion because after they have confessed it in prayer still struggle with it for a little while is completely unbiblical.

It is not serving sin by letting God through His Holy Spirit guide and mold us unto perfection. A person living in rebellion is one who continues to do so without repentance/confession, or continues to live a carnal lifestyle believing that they can do whatever they want now. Pride is a dangerous tool of satan and leads people to thank like the Pharisee who said thank God I am not like these sinners. If you tell a lie that sin is looked upon as just as wrong as one who murders, as we are told and shown in the bible that we are not to place our sins less worse then others. Jesus said unless you repent you will parish to, and the bible then shows that some will still struggle even after.

Even Jesus called the original 12 that they were men of little faith because they kept questioning and doubting what He said to them. Besides Judas we know the other 11 were saved unto eternal life through Christ even though they had their moments of doubts, and even Paul showed how he still struggled at first from turning from his wrongful ways to walking properly in the faith by the Spirit.

Your last sentence is truth that some do not want to stop sinning because like the bible says they love darkness more then light, but I would not place that darkness on the struggling brother/sister who is trying to turn from those ways. The bible makes it clear that we are to help the weaker ones in the faith, and not look at them as still condemned.

 

[Hepzibah]

The "inward man " of...

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

...is a reference to the mind.

Eph 3:14-21 speaks of the "inner man" in the context of the Spirit strengthening our heart.

Romans 7:14-28 is an illustration of a problem. We cannot strip things of their context.

Romans 7 is addressed to those whom know the law...

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

...where Paul gives a defence of the law. Sin unto death is only possible via knowledge because one cannot rebel without the knowledge of something to rebel against, hence the distinction between a sin unto death and a sin not unto death.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Spiritual death is wrought via either a violation of conscience or a violation of a commandment (Rom 5:13-14). Paul explains how even though the law is a good thing (for it gives man direction) it wrought death through sin taking occasion of the knowledge it brought.

Once this death is reaped the law cannot bring redemption. The Romans wretch recognises the value in the law yet despite this recognition he still finds himself in bondage to sin.

Sin is addictive. Repeated acts of sin actually pattern a physical effect on our brains. This is why there can be no victory over sin in the flesh because the flesh because patterned or adapted to sinning. The root of sinning which is iniquity in the heart has to be first destroyed through repentance and it is only then that one can submit wholeheartedly to God and be quickened unto life.

The Romans wretch is a believer only in the sense that he believes in God and mentally assents to the good of the law. He is not a Christian. Paul is giving this example to those whom "know the law" so that they know why the old man must die and be reborn of the Spirit.

Context is everything. The context of Romans 7 is the rest of Romans 7 as well as 6 and 8, not to mention the entire book. The context is not Ephesians chapter 3. False teachers rip things from their context.

Look at what Paul writes in Romans 6...

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The context of Rom 6:3-7 is that of "grace abounding when sin abounds." In other words when we were sinning God's grace was still manifest and available. Due to this should we then keep sinning that grace may abound even more?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Paul answers with an emphatic NO and then gives emphasis one what Christianity actually is...

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

A Christian is dead to sin and therefore cannot possibly live in it any more. Hence Romans 6:3-7.

He that is dead is free from sin. The old man is crucified and the body of sin is destroyed whereby the service of sin ceases. The Romans wretch has not experienced this. The Romans wretch has not died to sin and therefore has not been risen up to newness of life whereby he abides in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

I suspect the issues you have with what I say is the result of reading too many commentaries. Throw that stuff in the garbage where it belongs. Elaborate on scripture with your own words, not with the words of someone else.

You say:

Eph 3:14-21 speaks of the "inner man" in the context of the Spirit strengthening our heart.

I think that you are making an assumption here. Paul says that he prays that they will be strengthened by the Spirit in the inner man SO THAT Christ may dwell in their hearts. So the strengthening allows the dwelling. It does not have to be one action which you are claiming. One follows on from the other in my reading and which is confirmed by what Romans 7 is saying, that the inner man is the spirit. It is the spirit of man that receives the truth from God and not the mind. God primarily communicates with man through his spirit. This is how even those who are mentally sick, can hear God and know it is Him when He speaks. I knew a schizophrenic believer like this. She could easily discerne His voice from the other voices she hears. The heart and the mind are the soul of man.

I speak to them that know the law

The book of Romans is for Christians. He is speaking to those who have the knowledge of the truth, but are not living thereby. They have had it revealed by God so there is no excuse. He is not speaking to unbelievers. But you say that He is and then, suddenly, in chapter 7 He changes His focus and is speaking to Jews only?? What good is Romans 7 to an unbeliever? He does not have a war going on inside. He does not wish to obey the law (like me he wants to get away with whatever he can). He disobeys the law of his land whenever he can and is quite happy with that.

Then he finds Christ, and now there is a battle inside as he finds that he wants to obey but there is something inside which fights against the finer points of the law like forgiving an enemy. This has been the experience of countless believers through history. So Paul is giving an answer to them in Romans, and it is the highway of holiness, not as you say, to be able to avoid deliberate sin, but to have the new nature where one does not even have any evil desires any more because the heart is pure.

He speaks of it here:

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

He is saying that once the holy law was not revealed to him (but the law of the land is of course always there) but once he knew that God required purity of the heart, not what belief he held as a Jew of an outward religion, he found his heart was not pure and spiritually he died, that is he become separated from God and fell from his first love. This is also the experience of many believers.

The old man is crucified and the body of sin is destroyed whereby the service of sin ceases. The Romans wretch has not experienced this. The Romans wretch has not died to sin and therefore has not been risen up to newness of life whereby he abides in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Indeed the Roman wretch has not because when we come to Christ for forgiveness of sins we have not had the self dealt with and that usually only comes when one has been a believer for some time (but does not have to be) when a man has found himself to be a failure as a believer depending on his own efforts for sanctification.

And no, I did not get it from books, I got it directly from heaven, I reached a point where I saw that Christ had provided for me what I had been seeking for and trying to achieve only failing constantly. I sought holiness but only found it when it was imparted.

 

[Hepzibah]

ps Strengthening and dwelling are two different actions not one. Two different words in the Greek.

 

[Hepzibah]

κάμπτω τὰ and κατοικῆσαι τὸν

Sorry I am finding it hard to get used to the 5 mins limit.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

ps Strengthening and dwelling are two different actions not one. Two different words in the Greek.

Did you read the post?

 

[Hepzibah]

Skin

To go back to the dispute between Augustine and Pelagius, I am still not clear how you are interpreting the differing views. Augustine held the view you are holding. Right? View A. Which is that Paul is speaking as a man who is an unbeliever. Pelagius comes along and disputes this view so he holds view B. Right? Augustine changes his vew but not the view of Augustine. Right? So now he holds view C. Many here are holding view C that is, that Paul spoke as a believer in his normal state.

So what in your view was the view of Pelagius? And why, if you claim that he was not even a Christian would a theologian like Augustine, a bishop in fact, bother to have a debate ont he finer points of theology with a man who was not even a Christian? Does this make any sense to you as it does not make any to me. Please tell me what Pelagius believed in your own words not his thanks.

 

[michael56]

In Rom 7:14-25 Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee before his conversion to Christianity.