Old habits die hard.

Lion222 · Jul 8, 2020

Do you hear me saying any such things?

Yes God hates sin, that is exactly what loves does it hates evil.
So much so he sent His only begotten Son to die on a cross to take it away.
First to defeat its power over us to condemn us
Second to end its rule over us and transform us.

Seriously the only way to come to such a point of view as your friend did is to think its up to you to make it all happen.

It is only up to us to believe in God and ask expectantly for his working in us to that end or that beginning if you like and start taking the steps he tells us to.

I was in the same boat as your friend once, I hated myself because I hated sin like God but I was weak and not strong.
But God said he would make me strong and held to that, for decades I held to it and now here I stand, unfinished but stronger then I ever thought possible for me.

We are Gods workmanship in Christ Jesus.
Our own works in law-keeping for removal did not save us at the start of this salvation why will they save us in middle of it, in our sanctification?
We just believe God and obey, taking the steps in faith that he calls us to.
My argument is as always, God can do what man can not.
But if you don't believe it can happen it never will for you.
It is the same as not believing God can save you cause you are such a rotten sinner.

You cant stand a straw man up next to the truth and argue against the straw man.
God is Love!
It is in and out of and through that love that we can come to the place of putting our faith in God to seek in faith the bringing about of the ceasing of sin in our lives.
Peter clearly says it is possible and intended for us in this life.
He even makes clear that it is the beginning of living rest of or lives for the Glory of God..

Who are we to deny that?
Do we start redacting scripture for fear some people will be deceived and take it the wrong way, or because some start teaching a view of God over us with a lightening bolt?

Blain · Jul 8, 2020

Lion222 said:

Do you hear me saying any such things?

Yes God hates sin, that is exactly what loves does it hates evil.
So much so he sent His only begotten Son to die on a cross to take it away.
First to defeat its power over us to condemn us
Second to end its rule over us and transform us.

Seriously the only way to come to such a point of view as your friend did is to think its up to you to make it all happen.

It is only up to us to believe in God and ask expectantly for his working in us to that end or that beginning if you like and start taking the steps he tells us to.

I was in the same boat as your friend once, I hated myself because I hated sin like God but I was weak and not strong.
But God said he would make me strong and held to that, for decades I held to it and now here I stand, unfinished but stronger then I ever thought possible for me.

We are Gods workmanship in Christ Jesus.
Our own works in law-keeping for removal did not save us at the start of this salvation why will they save us in middle of it, in our sanctification?
We just believe God and obey, taking the steps in faith that he calls us to.
My argument is as always, God can do what man can not.
But if you don't believe it can happen it never will for you.
It is the same as not believing God can save you cause you are such a rotten sinner.

You cant stand a straw man up next to the truth and argue against the straw man.
God is Love!
It is in and out of and through that love that we can come to the place of putting our faith in God to seek in faith the bringing about of the ceasing of sin in our lives.
Peter clearly says it is possible and intended for us in this life.
He even makes clear that it is the beginning of living rest of or lives for the Glory of God..

Who are we to deny that?
Do we start redacting scripture for fear some people will be deceived and take it the wrong way, or because some start teaching a view of God over us with a lightening bolt?

Oh no I wasn't saying that was what you were saying only that is what my friend thought, he had schizophrenia so it was hard for him to mentally think straight even after asking God to come into his heart.
I do not share his views but I did see what happened to him with that doctrine, I have no quarrel with you so I will just agree to disagree.

Lion222 · Jul 8, 2020

Blain said:

OK, but to me sounds more like Satans workmanship. Not something that has to do with Gods word or ways for us.

Lion222 · Jul 9, 2020

Philippians 3:15 -

oldethennew said:

Philippians 3:15 instructions to the perfect.
To not assume their is not still something hiding away, keep persuing it as if you have not gotten their yet.
For some of us that is easy, cause we have not gotten their yet for sure.
But you are totally right.
But so was I, if you ask not believing that God can put an end to all of your sin, how can you expect that the sin you are sturggling with now will not be the one you will have for the rest of your life? Or the one that will kill you.

Sin is deadly stuff. I have lost a few good friends to it over the years. Watched some pastors and elders fall away. A wonderful godly brother fall back into sin and OD. Others struggling sin and with God killed themselves. Business men in the Church sell out for money bringing prostitutes to they clients to get the deal. I have watched pastors give in to cowardice and elders lie to protect their position. I have wept with a brother as he struggles with a divorce and a shared home with children into which his former wife would bring her lovers. Only to a few years later watch him do the same thing to another man moving into their family home. I have seen junior pastors, true men of God get fired because of jealousy over their ministry success. I watched Church leaders do wrong to their rebuking a Church member to the entire Church and throw them out without even telling them a thing as they literally patted each other on the back for it. I have seen pastors full of hatred barely holding themselves back from violence at the word of God.

I could go on for a long time.
But the point is sin is Satans hook into your life, your family and your church and if you let it continue he will use it to destroy and kill what you love. So cease from sin and be holy... Yeah. the other options are not good.

Blain · Jul 9, 2020

Lion222 said:

Well it very well could be for all I know, he attacks me quite often and constantly attaxks my weaknesses in fdepression and in self worth, often times I damaged inside because of this.
If there is a way top be soinless i would gladly take it but I am not strong enough I struggle with chains that I do not have the key to and no matter how much I pray he never realeases me from them but only he has the ky.

If I could be sinless I would be but I do not have the kind of faith to simply ask and receive, I hope one day I can but at the moment I cannot.I rely solely on his will and his power and strength not my own because I cannot even budge the chians I bear and i want to be everything he is and verything I am not but I have never been able to. Trust me with my struggles of low self eteeem severe depression and seeing myself as a worm lower than the dirt it eats and only seeeing myself in the worst light I would gladly accept the spirit to be able to never sin again I would even preach it and speak of it but the truth is he answers some of my prayers almost instantly and some I have been praying from the beginning of my faith yet never was given.

But regardless whatever his will I will accept his answer even if it means I have to suffer the inner chains I bear.If I can never know what it is like to ask and recieve and to be clean and sinless then so be it I will praise him for his love and grace, if it is in fact possible to be sionless ion the eyes of the lord and even within my own soul then I will praise for him for the same thing.

We all believe and understand things differently but what matters is what is in the heart.

Lion222 · Jul 9, 2020

Blain said:

Its a race to the bottom for us.
The man who become nobody first gets to be Greatest.
Self worth is something cross purposes to Gods plan.
God uses the least the ones who are nothing to confound the wise.
Our sinfulness, our worthlessness, our helplessness are what you dive into and swim for the depths of it all.
Because at the bottom of me, i find the reality of Gods love.
Knowing God is about knowing yourself and where you stand in relationship to him.
Taking everything you desire to hide, everything you desire to not look at and bring it out into the light to be examined by God.
That is how you understand the why behind the chains. the why is the key and Gods Love is what lets to delve the depths of your soul and when the cross is the only reason you have left to lift your head, you will find the man in the mirror no longer looks like he did.
For a time my prayer was God show me the depth of my sin so I might lay it all at your feet.
It was a very unpleasant time but a very transformation one as well.
I would stand in front of the mirror and look to see what is inside of myself.
Is my eye dark or light. some times one look light and the other dark and I would look more and ask God to show me.
At some point it moves past my reason I felt like I was actually much better.
Then God opened me up in my dreams... Yuck!
We naturally resist this stuff, avoid it like the plague, fear it as it we would die.. but the deeper I went, there he still was, and his love for penetrated me deeper still.
It amazes me after 40 years in the faith after all God has done and shown me every lesson is always the same one. Believing in the love of God. Why is it so impossible to believe in the Love of God, really really really believe in it all the way into the darkness of your soul? Brother the way up is the way down. To get out you go in as far as you can stand and then one more step.
You will bounce back like pressing against a rubber band but what you are actually doing in bring God in their with you and he dosent not leave. Im not the only one I have watched other physically change in countenance over the years into bold and powerful and humble men of God. It a passion of mine to see the children of God become strong, healthy and strong on the inside, solid and secure through and through.

Angela53510 · Jul 9, 2020

Lion222 said:

Yes Derek, that is the one and only verse that stands against the rest of scripture on the matter. It kept me from this for years but the overwhelming testimony of the rest of scripture and the very specific testimony of 1 peter 4:1-2 could not in good conscience be dismissed.

The underlying problem is one of translation. It uses a word found no where else in scripture. NO where else at all so they just went with what was closest. But recently it was found in some other material of the period.
what is translates as "have no sin" in the absence of a proper understanding of the isolated Greek word is understood now as "are without the present tense state of the impact of past sin"
So it would read more like "if you say you have not been impacted by sin".. which then removes it from being at odds with the rest of the immediate context.
It was another way of saying all have sinned and suffer from the state of having done so and to say otherwise is to make him a liar. A repeating / emphasizing what was said in the context in another manner.
But you need not take my word only , have a look at the translators noted of the NET version of the bible online.
would be nice if all bibles came with translators notes. that way we could at least know what verses are know to be most difficult to translate and way and what the possible options where being considered.

It speaks nothing in regards to not being able to cease from sin and it being required to start glorifying God with the rest of your life. which is what 1 Peter 4:1-2 forcefully asserts. Even to the point of saying we have spent enough time on the flesh to do all the bad things. saying in a way it is well past time to choose, to ready your mind to suffer whatever you must to and put it all away and live for God.

Like you said, digging up that field again.

Grk “say we do not have sin.” The use of ἔχω + ἁμαρτία (ecō + hamartia) is an expression limited to John and 1 John in the NT. On the analogy with other constructions where ἔχω governs an abstract noun (e.g., 1 John 1:3, 6, 7; 2:28; 3:3, 15, 21; 4:16, 17; 5:12–13), it indicates that a state is involved, which in the case of ἁμαρτία would refer to a state of sin. The four times the expression ἔχω + ἁμαρτία occurs in the Gospel of John (9:41; 15:22, 24; 19:11) all refer to situations where a wrong action has been committed or a wrong attitude has already existed, resulting in a state of sin, and then something else happens which further emphasizes the evil of that action or attitude. Here in 1 John 1:8 the sense is the same. The author is addressing people who have sinned (resulting in a state of sin), warning them that they cannot claim to be free from the guilt of that sin.

I would appreciate you sharing what this hapax legomena is. And put it in real Greek first, as you have done above. Transliterate after, if you want to!

Also, did you look up this word in BDAG? (Bauer!) I would like to check it for myself in that lexicon.

Thanks!

Blain · Jul 9, 2020

Lion222 said:

Well the thing is this isn't the first time I have battled with this, when I was first saved I was like my friend I spoke about I only had self laothing depression and low self esteem but it still hit me pretty hard I had dream once in this time where I was in a pure black place and a demon was on top of me his blooodlust and desire to tear me to shreds was bayond intense but before he could I stopped him and said he could only do it if I had sin in my life and there was none and the demon had to go away.
I remember this dream sometimes when I am overcom,e with my self doubt and fear, even though I saw myself in one way god saw me in another.

Honestly whether I am sinless or not isn't the point of salvation to me it is by his grace alone not my ability to be sinless or not

Derek1955 · Jul 9, 2020

Lion222 said:

Yes Derek, that is the one and only verse that stands against the rest of scripture on the matter. It kept me from this for years but the overwhelming testimony of the rest of scripture and the very specific testimony of 1 peter 4:1-2 could not in good conscience be dismissed.

The underlying problem is one of translation. It uses a word found no where else in scripture. NO where else at all so they just went with what was closest. But recently it was found in some other material of the period.
what is translates as "have no sin" in the absence of a proper understanding of the isolated Greek word is understood now as "are without the present tense state of the impact of past sin"
So it would read more like "if you say you have not been impacted by sin".. which then removes it from being at odds with the rest of the immediate context.
It was another way of saying all have sinned and suffer from the state of having done so and to say otherwise is to make him a liar. A repeating / emphasizing what was said in the context in another manner.
But you need not take my word only , have a look at the translators noted of the NET version of the bible online.
would be nice if all bibles came with translators notes. that way we could at least know what verses are know to be most difficult to translate and way and what the possible options where being considered.

It speaks nothing in regards to not being able to cease from sin and it being required to start glorifying God with the rest of your life. which is what 1 Peter 4:1-2 forcefully asserts. Even to the point of saying we have spent enough time on the flesh to do all the bad things. saying in a way it is well past time to choose, to ready your mind to suffer whatever you must to and put it all away and live for God.

Like you said, digging up that field again.

Grk “say we do not have sin.” The use of ἔχω + ἁμαρτία (ecō + hamartia) is an expression limited to John and 1 John in the NT. On the analogy with other constructions where ἔχω governs an abstract noun (e.g., 1 John 1:3, 6, 7; 2:28; 3:3, 15, 21; 4:16, 17; 5:12–13), it indicates that a state is involved, which in the case of ἁμαρτία would refer to a state of sin. The four times the expression ἔχω + ἁμαρτία occurs in the Gospel of John (9:41; 15:22, 24; 19:11) all refer to situations where a wrong action has been committed or a wrong attitude has already existed, resulting in a state of sin, and then something else happens which further emphasizes the evil of that action or attitude. Here in 1 John 1:8 the sense is the same. The author is addressing people who have sinned (resulting in a state of sin), warning them that they cannot claim to be free from the guilt of that sin.

Paul also in Romans 3:23 tells us 'For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,' He is aware of the fact that this side of the grave there is no one who is free from continuing to sin which is a falling short of God's perfection, whether in their thinking, their words or their actions and no amount of scholarship will change that changeless fact. If you truly believe this to be untrue then I would be very pleased to have an example of such a person.

Benadam · Jul 9, 2020

Derek1955 said:

Alexander Pope wrote: 'Tis education forms the common mind; just as the twig is bent the tree's inclined.' And it is a fact that old habits die hard, particularly those learned in our early formative years that are deeply embedded in our subconscious. Some early prejudices that in themselves have no foundation in truth, can surface unexpectedly and create a far from Christian response to a situation. By ourselves we find it difficult to control the seemingly automatic surfacing of those early hidden memories that reflect many of our pre-Christian attitudes for we are still creatures who are powerfully affected by the five senses. John in his first letter made it clear that if we say we do not sin then we are liars. So what to do? As Christians, Christ's Spirit and that of His Father dwell in us and we must ask for the field of our lives to be continually ploughed up and re-sown. It is the only way to uproot the darnel and to encourage fields of pure spiritual wheat to grow. Our humanity means we will never quite get rid of the automatic emergence of 'weeds and so it is only by continually repenting and seeking our Father's forgiveness through Christ that we will be saved and sadly the need to seek forgiveness will be with us to the end of our lives. I find there are far less weeds than before but they are still there. I thank God that He is not the God only of the perfect but also of the seeking otherwise I and many like me would be damned.

If faith in Christ is to survive what's coming this approach needs revived. Emersed in the death of Christ.
We need this to be able to return to the response to persecution that we had in the beginning. Derek you describe discipleship. A forgotten way of worship

eternally-gratefull · Jul 9, 2020

Lion222 said:

Yes Derek, that is the one and only verse that stands against the rest of scripture on the matter. It kept me from this for years but the overwhelming testimony of the rest of scripture and the very specific testimony of 1 peter 4:1-2 could not in good conscience be dismissed.

The underlying problem is one of translation. It uses a word found no where else in scripture. NO where else at all so they just went with what was closest. But recently it was found in some other material of the period.
what is translates as "have no sin" in the absence of a proper understanding of the isolated Greek word is understood now as "are without the present tense state of the impact of past sin"
So it would read more like "if you say you have not been impacted by sin".. which then removes it from being at odds with the rest of the immediate context.
It was another way of saying all have sinned and suffer from the state of having done so and to say otherwise is to make him a liar. A repeating / emphasizing what was said in the context in another manner.
But you need not take my word only , have a look at the translators noted of the NET version of the bible online.
would be nice if all bibles came with translators notes. that way we could at least know what verses are know to be most difficult to translate and way and what the possible options where being considered.

It speaks nothing in regards to not being able to cease from sin and it being required to start glorifying God with the rest of your life. which is what 1 Peter 4:1-2 forcefully asserts. Even to the point of saying we have spent enough time on the flesh to do all the bad things. saying in a way it is well past time to choose, to ready your mind to suffer whatever you must to and put it all away and live for God.

Like you said, digging up that field again.

Grk “say we do not have sin.” The use of ἔχω + ἁμαρτία (ecō + hamartia) is an expression limited to John and 1 John in the NT. On the analogy with other constructions where ἔχω governs an abstract noun (e.g., 1 John 1:3, 6, 7; 2:28; 3:3, 15, 21; 4:16, 17; 5:12–13), it indicates that a state is involved, which in the case of ἁμαρτία would refer to a state of sin. The four times the expression ἔχω + ἁμαρτία occurs in the Gospel of John (9:41; 15:22, 24; 19:11) all refer to situations where a wrong action has been committed or a wrong attitude has already existed, resulting in a state of sin, and then something else happens which further emphasizes the evil of that action or attitude. Here in 1 John 1:8 the sense is the same. The author is addressing people who have sinned (resulting in a state of sin), warning them that they cannot claim to be free from the guilt of that sin.

Where did you come up with this?

The words translated we have is the greek echomen. It is a verb in the present active state,
then we have ouk - the negative participle

then we have hamartien, which literally is a term which means to miss the mark, or fall short of the mark, a well known term used in Romans 3. Where the same word is used to claim we all have sinned and “miss the mark or glory” of God,

the word literally says, if we claim we ARE presently actively meeting the mark set by God, we decive ourselves.
even romans 3 is poorly translated

it literally says for all have missed the mark of God, and hysterion Which means to Fail to obtain Or being left behind God,

Lion222 · Jul 9, 2020

Derek1955 said:

Yes all have sinned, all fall short of the Glory of God.
But we who have Christ and the Spirit of God are called to be filled up to all the glory of God.
YES. I also would like to have the example of such a person.
God deserves better then what we have done with our lives in Christ.

How about just for a day to start?
Can you hold out for an hour?
How much suffering are you willing to endure to give him one whole month?
It is hard to take up your cross and follow.
But every bit, every time you do it gives Him GLORY!

We can all get to a place where we are unaware of any sin presently going on.
It is just a matter of staying there longer and longer each time.

I would rather be a pillar in the temple of My god then a drain grate in the streets of gold.
Near to Him in heaven rather then just getting past the gates.
I would rather bringing Him Glory when I go home rather then just my shame.

"The love of God is this, to hate evil" not tolerate it, not accept its continued rule over you until you die!

You may have heard the verse "Fight the good fight of faith"
This is very much that fight.
A fight you can do at any age, in any physical condition, on any budget, at any time.

You can do it right now and bring God GLORY in doing so.
Just go do that one thing that you know you need to and stop resisting God.

It is like asking you to step out your door and walk across the contentment.
It seems impossible for most but it is a matter of steps, continued persistent steps in the same direction.
Our life, our health, our strength, our provision everything we need to get to get to our God given goal are all in Gods hands.
The first step and the last and all the others in-between are our part.

Lion222 · Jul 10, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators' notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars experts in the original biblical languages who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. Turn the pages and see the breadth of the translators' notes, documenting their decisions and choices as they worked. The translators' notes make the original languages far more accessible, allowing you to look over the translator's shoulder at the very process of translation. This level of documentation is a first for a Bible translation, making transparent the textual basis and the rationale for key renderings (including major interpretive options and alternative translations). This unparalleled level of detail helps connect people to the Bible in the original languages in a way never before possible without years of study of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It unlocks the riches of the Bible's truth from entirely new perspectives.

1 John 1 - 1Now ▼ this is the gospel ▼ message ▼ we have heard from him ▼ and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. ▼ ▼ 6 If we say we have fellowship with him and yet keep on walking ▼ ▼ in the darkness, we are lying and not practicing ▼ the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses ▼ (or purifies) us from all sin. ▼ ▼ 8 If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, ▼ we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, ▼ forgiving ▼ us our sins and cleansing ▼ us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us. My little children, ▼ I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.

Translators Notes - Grk “say we do not have sin.” The use of ἔχω + ἁμαρτία (ecō + hamartia) is an expression limited to John and 1 John in the NT. On the analogy with other constructions where ἔχω governs an abstract noun (e.g., 1 John 1:3, 6, 7; 2:28; 3:3, 15, 21; 4:16, 17; 5:12–13), it indicates that a state is involved, which in the case of ἁμαρτία would refer to a state of sin. The four times the expression ἔχω + ἁμαρτία occurs in the Gospel of John (9:41; 15:22, 24; 19:11) all refer to situations where a wrong action has been committed or a wrong attitude has already existed, resulting in a state of sin, and then something else happens which further emphasizes the evil of that action or attitude. Here in 1 John 1:8 the sense is the same. The author is addressing people who have sinned (resulting in a state of sin), warning them that they cannot claim to be free from the guilt of that sin. The context of 1 John does not imply libertinism (where sins are flaunted as a way of demonstrating one’s “liberty”) on the part of the opponents, since the author makes no explicit charges of immoral behavior against his opponents. The worst the author explicitly says is that they have failed to love the brethren (1 John 3:17). It seems more likely that the opponents were saying that things a believer did after conversion were not significant enough to be “sins” that could challenge one’s intimate relationship with God (a relationship the author denies that the opponents have to begin with).

I understand it to be a present tense state the result of a past tense action, sin.
How can the blood of Jesus cleanse you from all sin if you say you have never sinned? to do so would make you a liar.
Likewise
Saying you are walking in the light and having fellowship and are being cleansed yet you continue to walk in darkness also makes you a liar.

Contemporary English Version
If we say we have not sinned, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth isn't in our hearts.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
If we say, "We aren't sinful" we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
NET Bible
If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Lion222 · Jul 10, 2020

9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, ▼ forgiving ▼ us our sins and cleansing ▼ us from all unrighteousness. ... I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.

I thought I confess my sin but where is the cleansing i long for?
Is Gods promise not any good? ..... NO! it must be me, I must not be getting it wrong somehow.

I asked God and I got my answer.
We confess the outward results of our sin, our transgression actions but not our sin.

Sin is a heart issue.
Sin is in the WHY.
The motives of our hearts.

Your hand does not cause you to sin, your eye does not cause you to sin.
If sin was in the outward it would be an easy matter to just cut off that hand and be done with it.
But Sin is a matter of the heart.

Seeking to confess the WHY behind my transgressions to God has set me properly on the path.
I had to pray for God to show me why.
Then the chains started to break.

Clean the inside of the cup, the outside will take care of itself.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 10, 2020

Lion222 said:

The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators' notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars experts in the original biblical languages who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. Turn the pages and see the breadth of the translators' notes, documenting their decisions and choices as they worked. The translators' notes make the original languages far more accessible, allowing you to look over the translator's shoulder at the very process of translation. This level of documentation is a first for a Bible translation, making transparent the textual basis and the rationale for key renderings (including major interpretive options and alternative translations). This unparalleled level of detail helps connect people to the Bible in the original languages in a way never before possible without years of study of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It unlocks the riches of the Bible's truth from entirely new perspectives.

1 John 1 - 1Now ▼ this is the gospel ▼ message ▼ we have heard from him ▼ and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. ▼ ▼ 6 If we say we have fellowship with him and yet keep on walking ▼ ▼ in the darkness, we are lying and not practicing ▼ the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses ▼ (or purifies) us from all sin. ▼ ▼ 8 If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, ▼ we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, ▼ forgiving ▼ us our sins and cleansing ▼ us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us. My little children, ▼ I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.

Translators Notes - Grk “say we do not have sin.” The use of ἔχω + ἁμαρτία (ecō + hamartia) is an expression limited to John and 1 John in the NT. On the analogy with other constructions where ἔχω governs an abstract noun (e.g., 1 John 1:3, 6, 7; 2:28; 3:3, 15, 21; 4:16, 17; 5:12–13), it indicates that a state is involved, which in the case of ἁμαρτία would refer to a state of sin. The four times the expression ἔχω + ἁμαρτία occurs in the Gospel of John (9:41; 15:22, 24; 19:11) all refer to situations where a wrong action has been committed or a wrong attitude has already existed, resulting in a state of sin, and then something else happens which further emphasizes the evil of that action or attitude. Here in 1 John 1:8 the sense is the same. The author is addressing people who have sinned (resulting in a state of sin), warning them that they cannot claim to be free from the guilt of that sin. The context of 1 John does not imply libertinism (where sins are flaunted as a way of demonstrating one’s “liberty”) on the part of the opponents, since the author makes no explicit charges of immoral behavior against his opponents. The worst the author explicitly says is that they have failed to love the brethren (1 John 3:17). It seems more likely that the opponents were saying that things a believer did after conversion were not significant enough to be “sins” that could challenge one’s intimate relationship with God (a relationship the author denies that the opponents have to begin with).

I understand it to be a present tense state the result of a past tense action, sin.
How can the blood of Jesus cleanse you from all sin if you say you have never sinned? to do so would make you a liar.
Likewise
Saying you are walking in the light and having fellowship and are being cleansed yet you continue to walk in darkness also makes you a liar.

Contemporary English Version
If we say we have not sinned, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth isn't in our hearts.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
If we say, "We aren't sinful" we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
NET Bible
If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

That tranlation is in error I showed the actual greek words used, And the literal translation

thanks for showing me another interpretation that should not be trusted

Lion222 · Jul 11, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

IMO This mistranslated verse has stood out like a sore thumb in opposition to its own context like none other.
Like a one verse doctrine, standing directly against the whole of scripture.

Robing the Saints of God from understanding the Gospel itself.
No wonder we have reduced the Gospel to pray this little prayer and "invite Jesus into your heart"
That is a far cry from walk in the light as He is in the light and you will have fellowship with God and the blood of Jesus will purify you from all sin.

I dare you.
Go count up all the verses that call for you to cease from sin, put away sin, not walk according to the flesh, be fill up to the fullness of Christ, be Holy ... they just go on and on and on.

Then count up the ones that say you cant and God cant.
You will get this one 1 John 1:8 and Romans 7 taken out of context, regarding man desperate state under sin ignoring Romans 8 as Gods solution in Christ.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 11, 2020

Lion222 said:

Nice opinion

but the words speak for themselves

no one has reached the stat of perfection, they will not until they are glorified, and their sanctification matches their justification. Until then we are continually in a state of “being sanctified”

that is johns point,

if anyone claims they are actively meeting the mark of God, (perfection) they deceive themselves and their is no truth in them

our goal should be to “go and continue in sin No more” if we are not running toward that goal we are in trouble

at the same time if we think we achieved that goal, we are in just as much trouble, because we are decieved

Prycejosh1987 · Jul 21, 2020

Derek1955 said:

Its nice to know that you believe in perfection, i sure do. I believe that perfection and seeking can come hand in hand, if a person wants it to.

Search

Old habits die hard.

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