skinski
The problem with your theology is that you say that a man is perfect at his first coming to Christ
Where did I say that? Where on earth did you come up with that "problem with my theology"?
Like I said previously, all your contentions are established within the framework and upon the foundations of a Second Blessing doctrine. You are speaking of "two comings" that an individual experiences, the first leaves one still carnal and sold under sin and whilst the second redeems one from that state. The Bible does not teach that. The Bible does teach a maturing but that is in the context of growing in grace and knowledge, not becoming less and less wicked.
The issue is not "perfection" but rather "obedience" and "heart purity."
The new birth is inclusive of a total transformation of the human heart and it does not leave an individual in a wretched state carnal and sold under sin.
Look at what Peter taught...
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Peter connects "being born again" with a the "soul that has been purified through obedience to the truth through the Spirit."
Who was Peter speaking to?
1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Peter is addressing newborn babes, not Romans wretches.
Furthermore Peter taught this...
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
The people Peter is speaking to HAVE escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. He then tells them to add to their faith.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This has nothing to do with some Second Blessing in which a First Blessing leaves a Christian carnal and sold under sin. Such a contention is obvious nonsense.
A Christian has been set free from sin, they are not saved and left in bondage.
An unbeliever or a Jew or whatever you like, will not have this battle within according to your interpretation of Roamns 7. This is the battle of a man who is trying to obey Christ but then is brought to a crisis point where his sense of sin is opened up and he sees just how badly he is failing.
Stop forcing your theological position into the text and instead read it plainly in its proper context.
Paul is speaking to those who know the law.
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for
I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
The "know ye not" is a statement made right after...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
...thus Paul is elaborating on why the "through Jesus Christ" is necessary.
Paul explains how it is the law that gives men direction on the right way to go...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay,
I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Israel was bound to the law...
Rom 7:2 For
the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
In other words those whom heard the law were responsible for adhering to the righteous standard the law proclaimed. Yet due to people violating that standard knowingly they wrought condemnation on themselves for they had to repress light...
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
This is the same thing Jesus taught...
Joh 3:19 And
this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Paul contends, that even though the law brought death, that the law was a good thing.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then?
Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
...
Rom 7:10 And
the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
...
Rom 7:12 Wherefore
the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then
that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Then after defending the law from any perceived charge that it was a bad thing Paul then gives the example of the Romans wretch...
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Paul gives emphasis to what he is teaching by employing the use of the grammatical device of Historical Present.
The law is actually sourced in the spiritual, it is but an external manifestation of the law of love. The law is spiritual but the wretch is carnal and sold under sin. Mere adherence to the law cannot effect a loosing of the bondage of sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
The word ALLOW in the Greek is "ginōskō" and it means an experiential knowledge. The Romans wretch is in darkness, hence he "knows not." The Romans wretch is caught in a cycle of wrong doing of which he is continually convicted of. His conscience is not clean before God and therefore it is obvious that he has not touched the blood of Jesus Christ (Heb 9:14, 1Joh 1:7).
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Paul is personifying sin to make it vivid to the reader. Sin is likened to a tyrannical taskmaster whom indwells the wretched man ruling over him. The wretched man is in a crisis over his bonded state and is seeking the means by which he may be extricated from such a dire situation.
Read it carefully...
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This man is WRETCHED.
This man is CARNAL.
This man is SOLD UNDER SIN.
This man perceives the LAW (the shadow) and upholds the law as being a good thing.
This man recognises that he is in a state of bondage.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Here Paul thanks God and also elaborates on what he has just taught. The flesh will ALWAYS serve the law of sin because the flesh is a reference to the base passions. If it feels good do it. Carnal man is driven by the flesh even though in the mind they might acknowledge right and wrong. There are many drunks, porn addicts, gambling addicts, gluttons, etc. who acknowledge the wrongness of their behaviour (uphold the law in the mind) and yet serve sin in the flesh.
Paul is making the point that the law in and of itself cannot save anyone. The law is but a shadow of love. The law is but a shadow of the Spirit of life. The Romans wretch has to die to the shadow in order to partake of the Spirit. We are not to serve shadows, we are to utilise the SOURCE.
Therefore there is no condemnation upon those whom...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them
which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For
the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For
what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Salvation is through the Spirit.
Rom 7:6 But now
we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
What I have stated is the truth regarding the Romans 7 wretch. This is what Paul was teaching. There is no uncertainty as to what Paul meant because the passage has a context which makes it clear.
Romans is not a letter consisting of proof texts and proof passages. Romans is a letter expressing truths as a harmonious whole, not only within itself but also in accordance with the rest of scripture.
There is no such thing as a wretched Christian whom is carnal and sold under sin. Those who teach that there is are giving people an excuse to keep sinning and they are also undermining the real meaning of repentance.
