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it seems to be more of a trusting in "going doing things in addition to Christ"...the faith is complete belief and dependency on Christ and His finished work.
We can fall from grace like Paul says in Galatians but just means we are trusting in our works...not that God is now going to throw us into hell forever....the whole idea is absurd and a complete lie about the character and motive of our loving Father towards us shown through Christ..
We can fall from grace like Paul says in Galatians but just means we are trusting in our works...not that God is now going to throw us into hell forever....the whole idea is absurd and a complete lie about the character and motive of our loving Father towards us shown through Christ..
G
Give us a clear simple verse that says" if you are saved, and then disbelieve you will lose your salvation or eternal life."
New American Standard Bible
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
New International Version
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
New Living Translation
For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
English Standard Version
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Berean Study Bible
For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable.
New American Standard Bible
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
New International Version
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
New Living Translation
For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
English Standard Version
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Berean Study Bible
For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable.
However RickyZ, while they may fall to false doctrines, what does 2 Peter 2 state? False doctrines are dangerous as a false doctrine is to another gospel and another Christ. 2 Peter 2 talks about false teachers as spots and blemishes in our love feasts. Carousing with us, they entice unstable souls. It states specifically that these false teachers are in bondage and their judgment will come. Blackness of darkness forever = hell (in the bible, hell is also depicted as outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth). However, going along the same dynamic seen in 1 Timothy it says that they have "forsaken the right way and gone astray." Gone astray... from something they were not on? Nope.
2 Peter 2:12-17 NKJV
Depravity of False Teachers
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]These are wells without water, clouds[SUP][b][/SUP] carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.[SUP][c][/SUP]
It also speaks directly about those that are overcome by these false teachers. And specifically, it speaks about people who have "escaped" the pollutions of the world by.... what? The knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Deceptions of False Teachers
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[SUP][d][/SUP] from those who live in error. [SUP]19 [/SUP]While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
Escaping from those who live in error = Born again
Escaping the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ = Born again
The exhortation is to not be entangled again in these pollutions by following false doctrines and heresies. The latter end will be worse for us than the beginning if we do so. I think that's a pretty clear warning.
2 Peter 2:12-17 NKJV
Depravity of False Teachers
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]These are wells without water, clouds[SUP][b][/SUP] carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.[SUP][c][/SUP]
It also speaks directly about those that are overcome by these false teachers. And specifically, it speaks about people who have "escaped" the pollutions of the world by.... what? The knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Deceptions of False Teachers
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[SUP][d][/SUP] from those who live in error. [SUP]19 [/SUP]While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
Escaping from those who live in error = Born again
Escaping the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ = Born again
The exhortation is to not be entangled again in these pollutions by following false doctrines and heresies. The latter end will be worse for us than the beginning if we do so. I think that's a pretty clear warning.
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yes i agree etc
and how did a gentile get the holy spirit, were they told in words like in acts 10, or in acts 2,
Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the fleshGalatians 3
how can you lose, a believing in. to maintain, is not up to us.
16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring---not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,Romans 4
and
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
going to church or religions and there ideas is wrong to basic faith or belief in. a god through jesus christ.
and how did a gentile get the holy spirit, were they told in words like in acts 10, or in acts 2,
Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the fleshGalatians 3
how can you lose, a believing in. to maintain, is not up to us.
16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring---not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,Romans 4
and
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
going to church or religions and there ideas is wrong to basic faith or belief in. a god through jesus christ.
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walking in,is different to believe in.
16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring---not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,Romans 4
my point is more people are trying to add maintain,
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more."
13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.Hebrews 8
if its a guaranteed, then how can it vanish.
the lord, will not leave or forsake a believer. etc
16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring---not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,Romans 4
my point is more people are trying to add maintain,
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more."
13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.Hebrews 8
if its a guaranteed, then how can it vanish.
the lord, will not leave or forsake a believer. etc
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R
Quite a contradiction to Scripture in those two quotes of yours! You clearly say sin will not lead to a loss of salvation. I understand you also said that if a saved person stops believing, or in other words, forfeits his faith, he loses salvation. Problem with your interpretation of Scripture is that the Bible clearly teaches:
"...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" Rom 14:23b
A Christian who decides to stop believing/lose faith in Christ one day is not of faith, that is considered a sin to God! But you just stated that sin will not lead to loss of salvation!
" If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." 2 Tim 2:13
Note that 2 Tim chapter 2 is not speaking to the unsaved! Under great distress or many trials, getting caught up in the world, etc... the faith of many will unfortunately suffer! No where in Scripture does God threaten a saint that he can end up going to hell! A saint may lose the joy of his salvation, lose his testimony, lose his ministry, his health, even lose his life but He is safe in the blood of Jesus!
"...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" Rom 14:23b
A Christian who decides to stop believing/lose faith in Christ one day is not of faith, that is considered a sin to God! But you just stated that sin will not lead to loss of salvation!
" If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." 2 Tim 2:13
Note that 2 Tim chapter 2 is not speaking to the unsaved! Under great distress or many trials, getting caught up in the world, etc... the faith of many will unfortunately suffer! No where in Scripture does God threaten a saint that he can end up going to hell! A saint may lose the joy of his salvation, lose his testimony, lose his ministry, his health, even lose his life but He is safe in the blood of Jesus!
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... abstain from ... fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. Acts 15:29
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. 1 John 5:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 1:21
That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. 2 Timothy 1:14
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. 1 John 5:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 1:21
That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. 2 Timothy 1:14
Final words, 'cause like Sirk I have real work to do but this is too addicting 
Honestly, I hope you OSAS'ers are right. I don't see how you are, it takes twisting or outright ignoring numerous scriptures to make it so, but I hope you are. I have 2 in my family who were once huge 'Jesus freaks' but who have since told Christ to kiss off - that the whole Bible story is one big lie. For their sake I hope you're right, but I just don't see how anyone WHO DENIES CHRIST AS LORD/SAVIOR/SACRAFICED FOR THEIR SINS IS GOING TO 'GET IN'. Including those who once accepted.
Secondly, GOD SENDS NO ONE TO HELL. People CHOOSE where they will go - either to be with God or to not be with Him. Salvation is not a whammy-stick God holds over our head to coerce our participation. I liken it more to being like this:
Suppose I built a resort for homeless people. All I asked for their free use of it is that they stop and say thanks to me on their way in the door. That's it, say thanks and you're in, tell me to eff-off and you can sit outside on the curb in the weather.
Am I really being evil to all those who chose to sit on the curb?
Happy New Year y'all!
Honestly, I hope you OSAS'ers are right. I don't see how you are, it takes twisting or outright ignoring numerous scriptures to make it so, but I hope you are. I have 2 in my family who were once huge 'Jesus freaks' but who have since told Christ to kiss off - that the whole Bible story is one big lie. For their sake I hope you're right, but I just don't see how anyone WHO DENIES CHRIST AS LORD/SAVIOR/SACRAFICED FOR THEIR SINS IS GOING TO 'GET IN'. Including those who once accepted.
Secondly, GOD SENDS NO ONE TO HELL. People CHOOSE where they will go - either to be with God or to not be with Him. Salvation is not a whammy-stick God holds over our head to coerce our participation. I liken it more to being like this:
Suppose I built a resort for homeless people. All I asked for their free use of it is that they stop and say thanks to me on their way in the door. That's it, say thanks and you're in, tell me to eff-off and you can sit outside on the curb in the weather.
Am I really being evil to all those who chose to sit on the curb?
Happy New Year y'all!
S
Thank you for at least noticing that I asked this simple q.
I appreciate the scriptures, but was hoping for a
direct answer from the ppl debating on this thread,
since I can pull scriptures that would seem to support both sides.
(I'm honestly not being sarcastic here)
I know I'm not a bible expert like most of you folks seem to be,
and sometimes when reading these threads,
I feel like a rowboat being tossed about in a stormy sea,
and at the end, I don't feel any more educated
than when I started, sometimes even less,
but that's probly due to my own density more than anything,
and I fear I'm an example of being a 'double-minded man...
unstable in all his ways', like the bible says.
So I thank anyone who will answer the question,
it's not a pass or fail exam, I'd just like to know
how you folks debating would answer.....
(I do have an opinion, but will wait to share it,
just to see if the majority of answers will either
support my view, or contradict it. Or not?) So again...
Does Jesus keep me? Right through the end?
Or do I keep myself, somehow?
Or am I asking the wrong question in the wrong place?
I appreciate the scriptures, but was hoping for a
direct answer from the ppl debating on this thread,
since I can pull scriptures that would seem to support both sides.
(I'm honestly not being sarcastic here)
I know I'm not a bible expert like most of you folks seem to be,
and sometimes when reading these threads,
I feel like a rowboat being tossed about in a stormy sea,
and at the end, I don't feel any more educated
than when I started, sometimes even less,
but that's probly due to my own density more than anything,
and I fear I'm an example of being a 'double-minded man...
unstable in all his ways', like the bible says.
So I thank anyone who will answer the question,
it's not a pass or fail exam, I'd just like to know
how you folks debating would answer.....
(I do have an opinion, but will wait to share it,
just to see if the majority of answers will either
support my view, or contradict it. Or not?
) So again...Does Jesus keep me? Right through the end?
Or do I keep myself, somehow?
Or am I asking the wrong question in the wrong place?
There is a difference between keeping oneself from getting into stupid trouble and sinning that will destroy the body....keeping us safe in Him for our eternal life is a completely different "keep"...and this is all to do with Him.
I suppose one could ask if the Father answered Jesus' prayer to Him?..get the answer to that and we should have an idea of Who keeps us..
John 17:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.2 Timothy 1:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Jude 1:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
I suppose one could ask if the Father answered Jesus' prayer to Him?..get the answer to that and we should have an idea of Who keeps us..
John 17:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.2 Timothy 1:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Jude 1:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Thank you for at least noticing that I asked this simple q.
I appreciate the scriptures, but was hoping for a
direct answer from the ppl debating on this thread,
since I can pull scriptures that would seem to support both sides.
(I'm honestly not being sarcastic here)
I know I'm not a bible expert like most of you folks seem to be,
and sometimes when reading these threads,
I feel like a rowboat being tossed about in a stormy sea,
and at the end, I don't feel any more educated
than when I started, sometimes even less,
but that's probly due to my own density more than anything,
and I fear I'm an example of being a 'double-minded man...
unstable in all his ways', like the bible says.
So I thank anyone who will answer the question,
it's not a pass or fail exam, I'd just like to know
how you folks debating would answer.....
(I do have an opinion, but will wait to share it,
just to see if the majority of answers will either
support my view, or contradict it. Or not?) So again...
Does Jesus keep me? Right through the end?
Or do I keep myself, somehow?
Or am I asking the wrong question in the wrong place?
I appreciate the scriptures, but was hoping for a
direct answer from the ppl debating on this thread,
since I can pull scriptures that would seem to support both sides.
(I'm honestly not being sarcastic here)
I know I'm not a bible expert like most of you folks seem to be,
and sometimes when reading these threads,
I feel like a rowboat being tossed about in a stormy sea,
and at the end, I don't feel any more educated
than when I started, sometimes even less,
but that's probly due to my own density more than anything,
and I fear I'm an example of being a 'double-minded man...
unstable in all his ways', like the bible says.
So I thank anyone who will answer the question,
it's not a pass or fail exam, I'd just like to know
how you folks debating would answer.....
(I do have an opinion, but will wait to share it,
just to see if the majority of answers will either
support my view, or contradict it. Or not?
) So again...Does Jesus keep me? Right through the end?
Or do I keep myself, somehow?
Or am I asking the wrong question in the wrong place?
I think GOD keeps us by giving us discernment and faith to bear witness to and believe his revealed truth in the bible. I'm sure he protects us in the spiritual realm in ways that we can't see or know. He gives us understanding, knowledge and wisdom to be able to keep ourselves from evil in this world. He does all of these things so that we can grow and be like him.
But we also keep ourselves by guarding what has been given to us, and exercising what we've been given so that we don't grow cold, turn away and die.
But we also keep ourselves by guarding what has been given to us, and exercising what we've been given so that we don't grow cold, turn away and die.
S
Thank you for the honest answers, grace7 and HeRose.
You each kind of confirmed my thinking.....
Grace7's wrote:
•••There is a difference between keeping oneself from getting into stupid trouble and sinning that will destroy the body...keeping us safe in Him for our eternal life is a completely different "keep"..and this is all to do with Him.
And HeRose wrote:
•••I think GOD keeps us by giving us discernment and faith...
But we also keep ourselves by guarding what has been given to us...
It seems the more I think I learn,
the less I think I know!
More and more, the answers to the 'Either/Or' questions
seem to be 'Both/And'.
I DO wish, sometimes, that the answers were more succinct,
Not so much for myself, (I'm trusting Jesus' once for all forever
payment for my sins upon the cross...'It is finished'...and I believe
that's a gift from Him. If that's wrong of me, I'm not sure what more
I can do about it. Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe,
Here I stand, I can do no other. I guess 1000 'clichès' would apply),
But I wish, for the sake of telling others, the answers to
some of these questions could be this OR that,
but I guess until I grow more in knowledge,
the answer to the q, 'Who keeps us saved, us or Jesus?'
The answer I have for now is, YES?
You each kind of confirmed my thinking.....
Grace7's wrote:
•••There is a difference between keeping oneself from getting into stupid trouble and sinning that will destroy the body...keeping us safe in Him for our eternal life is a completely different "keep"..and this is all to do with Him.
And HeRose wrote:
•••I think GOD keeps us by giving us discernment and faith...
But we also keep ourselves by guarding what has been given to us...
It seems the more I think I learn,
the less I think I know!
More and more, the answers to the 'Either/Or' questions
seem to be 'Both/And'.
I DO wish, sometimes, that the answers were more succinct,
Not so much for myself, (I'm trusting Jesus' once for all forever
payment for my sins upon the cross...'It is finished'...and I believe
that's a gift from Him. If that's wrong of me, I'm not sure what more
I can do about it. Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe,
Here I stand, I can do no other. I guess 1000 'clichès' would apply),
But I wish, for the sake of telling others, the answers to
some of these questions could be this OR that,
but I guess until I grow more in knowledge,
the answer to the q, 'Who keeps us saved, us or Jesus?'
The answer I have for now is, YES?