ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, HYPER GRACE, ETERNAL SECURITY = FALSE DOCTRINE PROVEN!

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Nov 22, 2015
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Go with what is in your heart brother...that is where the Holy Spirit is...He is here to reveal Jesus to us!....He will reveal all truth to you about Jesus and His finished work on our behalf.

..in the meantime..the scripture below works for me on a lot of issues..be blessed!

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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when will we stop wrangling with words on this topic

- let every man/woman be convinced on their own accord and act based on that belief
 
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[/QUOTE]
Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.[/QUOTE]


Bamb - this verse read my mind before I even posted - didn't see it before I posted!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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2 Peter 2:12-17 NKJV
Depravity of False Teachers

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]These are wells without water, clouds[SUP][b][/SUP] carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.[SUP][c][/SUP]

It also speaks directly about those that are overcome by these false teachers. And specifically, it speaks about people who have "escaped" the pollutions of the world by.... what? The knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Deceptions of False Teachers

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[SUP][d][/SUP] from those who live in error. [SUP]19 [/SUP]While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Escaping from those who live in error = Born again
Escaping the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ = Born again
The exhortation is to not be entangled again in these pollutions by following false doctrines and heresies. The latter end will be worse for us than the beginning if we do so. I think that's a pretty clear warning.
So why didn't Peter simply say they were "born again" or "saved"? Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge.
 

Cee

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May 14, 2010
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If you think people can lose their salvation, I don't see how you can accept the truth of the following:
- The Law is now written on their heart/mind
- They are a new creation
- They old man is dead
- They are now free of sin/death
- God is eternal life and will not forsake them
- They are sealed by Holy Spirit
- They are now children of God
- We are now seated in heavenly places (not will be)
- God didn't really forget their sins

Which tells me your idea of salvation is a future event not a present reality. And because of this you feel like people need to be scared into doing the things of God instead of joyfully. But this is the reason that God lays down in the OT, that His laws would be written on their heart and mind and He would be called their God and He would remember their sins no more.

Obedience because of "fear of punishment" is not obedience at all. It's slavery.

We are bond servants because of love. Not because of fear. Everything in Scripture makes no sense through this lens accept for a few verses that are hard to understand, but the simple ones are quite clear.

C.
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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If you think people can lose their salvation, I don't see how you can accept the truth of the following:
- The Law is now written on their heart/mind
- They are a new creation
- They old man is dead
- They are now free of sin/death
- God is eternal life and will not forsake them
- They are sealed by Holy Spirit
- They are now children of God
- We are now seated in heavenly places (not will be)
- God didn't really forget their sins

Which tells me your idea of salvation is a future event not a present reality. And because of this you feel like people need to be scared into doing the things of God instead of joyfully. But this is the reason that God lays down in the OT, that His laws would be written on their heart and mind and He would be called their God and He would remember their sins no more.

Obedience because of "fear of punishment" is not obedience at all. It's slavery.

We are bond servants because of love. Not because of fear. Everything in Scripture makes no sense through this lens accept for a few verses that are hard to understand, but the simple ones are quite clear.

C.
Gnostic grace: Christ in you, the possession of glory
GOD's grace: Christ in you, the hope of glory

to whom God wanted to make known what [is] the glorious wealth of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, Colossians 1:27

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it]. Romans 8:24-25

In your patient endurance you will gain your souls. Luke 21:19

Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, in order that [after you] have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. For yet ​“a very, very little [while], [and] the one who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul is not well pleased with him.” But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but among those who have faith to the preservation of [our] souls. Hebrews 10:35-39
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
They left us because they were never apart of us -John
Depart from Me I never knew you -Jesus
Examine yourself if you are in the faith -Paul
-Note it doesn't say: Still in the faith or not...

C.
Why again is it so hard for people to see this..

Pride is a NASTY thing..
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, in order that [after you] have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. For yet ​“a very, very little [while], [and] the one who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul is not well pleased with him.” But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but among those who have faith to the preservation of [our] souls. Hebrews 10:35-39
What is the will of God for us to receive eternal life? John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Notice in Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
And that kinda addresses the sticking point here... you can be drawn away by false doctrines and still be saved - but you cannot be drawn away into disbelief and still be saved. One has to be able to separate doctrines of works and belief in Christ. If you disbelieve in Christ, you're out... whether you were saved once or not..
There is no sticking point.

You can not prove that someone who TRULY had SAVING FAITH in the resurrected Lord Jesus, Saved by his Holy Spirit. Given the seal of that same spirit as a guarantee of his inheritance (eternal life) would ever depart from true faith.

You have been shown passage after passage that proves people who left where never saved to begin with, but you still want to argue..

You can say a true believer can depart from saving faith and lose salvation til doomsday, That does not make it fact.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
And again, for you, me, and the vast majority here, it really is a moot issue. I don't believe any of us here are going to try to work our way out our abandon our belief. But it is dangerous to teach others that they can tell Christ to kiss off and stay saved.
So your dad has never made you so mad you told him to kiss off? or something to the sort?

Did your dad kick you out?

really now. the religion is coming out of you. Put it back where it belongs, It sounds good to our flesh, but it is an evil thing.

 
Sep 4, 2012
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There is no sticking point.

You can not prove that someone who TRULY had SAVING FAITH in the resurrected Lord Jesus, Saved by his Holy Spirit. Given the seal of that same spirit as a guarantee of his inheritance (eternal life) would ever depart from true faith.

You have been shown passage after passage that proves people who left where never saved to begin with, but you still want to argue..

You can say a true believer can depart from saving faith and lose salvation til doomsday, That does not make it fact.
The proof of saving faith is endurance to the end.
 
Dec 31, 2015
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Some become christians without having considered the true cost like 14:28-32

Are they in a saved state when they come to Christ? I would say definitely so. God takes them at their word. He doesn't condemn them for what they are not yet guilty of. John tells us people went out from the church so this proves they were not christians in the truest sense. But then disciples who were not spiritual novices had firstly accepted them as christians. But when trials, hardships and temptations came to these people they walked away from the faith. Then they are condemned, they lose what they had.
But some come to Christ and do in their heart make a full commitment. Though at times they allow themselves to be distracted from the path, the good shepherd never rejects them, he ensures they always come to their senses and return. Their salvation will never be lost.
 
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sydlit

Guest
HeRose wrote:
Gnostic grace: Christ in you, the possession of glory
GOD's grace: Christ in you, the hope of glory

Christ IN you.........IN.....as in IN!
Sounds like a present possession.

In HOPE of eternal life, which God,
that cannot lie, PROMISED before the world began. {Titus1:2}

He that believes on the Son, HAS (present possession)
HAS everlasting life. {John3:36a}

'My HOPE is built on nothing less, than
Jesus blood and righteousness.'
His blood was shed for our sins,
His righteousness is absolute,
His word of promise is secure,
His life is eternal.
Our HOPE is built on His CERTAINTY,
Not wishful thinking! Absolute and secure!
Christ IN you. Not Christ 'will be' in you, but
Christ IS...IN...you. NOW. Present possession.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The proof of saving faith is endurance to the end.
So show me how saving faith would not endure till the end..

I hear everyone say it, But no one has shown me how someone who has a faith in a God who never failed them would ever lose faith (remember, Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can lose mountaints) so lacking faith is not the same as losing faith altogether..
 
Sep 4, 2012
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So show me how saving faith would not endure till the end..

I hear everyone say it, But no one has shown me how someone who has a faith in a God who never failed them would ever lose faith (remember, Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can lose mountaints) so lacking faith is not the same as losing faith altogether..
You're just doing circular reasoning. Faith that endures to the end is saving faith.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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Christ in us gives us the hope of glory, but we do not yet possess glory, which is salvation.
This is an interesting topic - Christ in us the hope of Glory - glorification - would not that be the redemption of our mortal bodies in heaven?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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It is God in us that gives us the perseverance...no matter how much it offends our flesh and our wanting to be independent of Christ is us....the depending on us "doing" in order to receive the grace of Christ in our lives...it always comes back to He is our source for everything.

Romans 15:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,

It does not say.."for those who are "doing" the abundance ( sheesh...there's that dreaded hyper stuff again ) of grace reign in life through our Lord...but it's those who "receive" the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness that will reign in life in our Lord.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
 
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Gnostic grace: Christ in you, the possession of glory
GOD's grace: Christ in you, the hope of glory

Didn't Gnostic's believe that the body was bad? You do not reflect that idea do you? Could you elaborate what you mean - it seems that other's have already made assumptions on what you mean, so I am wondering
 
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2 Cor 3:18
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.