Once saved always saved? Or is salvation conditional on believing and following God's Word?
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What is dishonest my friend?
There is a serious problem here with people using words like liar, deceiver, sending people to
hell, satan over issues that are within traditional christian sound theology.
How is it people who claim to be Christians can talk so aggressively about eternal issues and
excuse blatant sin like fornication, theft, sexual immorality, lying, dishonouring parents, pornography etc
and many areas of guilt where confession, repentance and faith would bring resolution?
All those who oppose such christian values look for any excuse, any reason to discredit or defame others,
to provoke and abuse them.
Love called hate, love called contempt, love called leading people to the Jonestown massacre.
These are all so unexpected conclusions drawn by "believers" yet must truly be lost to end up in language
like this. Once such attitudes are exposed and understood, wolves dressed as sheep whose aim is destruction
demonstrate by their use of language what their hearts are full of. Jesus called such as these
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.
He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth
in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies
John 8
It is no surprise such opposition should arise, or if a work of God is truly to be established such people must
be faced, but this is the ways of walking with the Lord.
Love is such a strange message, that as Paul described creates this response
16 To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task?
2 Cor 2
But the cross is our walk and love is our heart shared to all through Christ work.
6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying,
let him use it in proportion to his faith.
7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;
8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others,
let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy,
let him do it cheerfully.
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
Rom 12
There is a serious problem here with people using words like liar, deceiver, sending people to
hell, satan over issues that are within traditional christian sound theology.
How is it people who claim to be Christians can talk so aggressively about eternal issues and
excuse blatant sin like fornication, theft, sexual immorality, lying, dishonouring parents, pornography etc
and many areas of guilt where confession, repentance and faith would bring resolution?
All those who oppose such christian values look for any excuse, any reason to discredit or defame others,
to provoke and abuse them.
Love called hate, love called contempt, love called leading people to the Jonestown massacre.
These are all so unexpected conclusions drawn by "believers" yet must truly be lost to end up in language
like this. Once such attitudes are exposed and understood, wolves dressed as sheep whose aim is destruction
demonstrate by their use of language what their hearts are full of. Jesus called such as these
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.
He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth
in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies
John 8
It is no surprise such opposition should arise, or if a work of God is truly to be established such people must
be faced, but this is the ways of walking with the Lord.
Love is such a strange message, that as Paul described creates this response
16 To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task?
2 Cor 2
But the cross is our walk and love is our heart shared to all through Christ work.
6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying,
let him use it in proportion to his faith.
7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;
8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others,
let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy,
let him do it cheerfully.
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
Rom 12
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amen
we are worried about the big sins, so we ignore the small ones, or refuse to acknowledge how serious those sins are
and we focus on all the huge works, and ignore the small works. Which is what God is mainly concerned with, because it is usually those works which draw others to himself
we are worried about the big sins, so we ignore the small ones, or refuse to acknowledge how serious those sins are
and we focus on all the huge works, and ignore the small works. Which is what God is mainly concerned with, because it is usually those works which draw others to himself
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and his sheep know his voice and follow..
whoever stays lost never were his sheep to begin with, as evidenced by the fact they do not know his voice.
I think people forget. God calls us sheep.. Sheep are not all that smart.. sometimes we think we are smarter than we really are. when we just need to be sheep and follow our good shepherd
whoever stays lost never were his sheep to begin with, as evidenced by the fact they do not know his voice.
I think people forget. God calls us sheep.. Sheep are not all that smart.. sometimes we think we are smarter than we really are. when we just need to be sheep and follow our good shepherd
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scripture says your wrong
John 10:26-27
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 10:26-27
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
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One simple test of these folk is consistency.
They will change their ideas if they do not fit one day to the next.
So one says you are sinners incapable of following God or His way or His laws.
Then another will say, following God comes naturally, it is easy from the heart.
They simply have not understood the beginning of what sin is, what the law is, how we are condemned
and forgiven, and how Gods people are washed, pure, Holy and redeemed.
If you are not clean, but forgiven, what is the point worrying about dirt or getting more dirty?
And if Jesus is everything and we do nothing, why not just lay back and enjoy the ride.
Self righteousness is doing anything good. Doing good is evil. Doing evil is just who you are, get used
to it.
What does scripture say
7 He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
1 John 3
So those who contradict scripture are not of God. Those who teach sinning is just what we are, are
not of God. No matter how these folk appear, they do not have the Holy Spirit talking from them.
Now this is not my judgement, this is John speaking, Gods word.
Have any of these folk repented and changed their language or direction? No.
All that has happened is they have become more belligerent and abusive which indicates scripture
is correct and they are not of God.
They will change their ideas if they do not fit one day to the next.
So one says you are sinners incapable of following God or His way or His laws.
Then another will say, following God comes naturally, it is easy from the heart.
They simply have not understood the beginning of what sin is, what the law is, how we are condemned
and forgiven, and how Gods people are washed, pure, Holy and redeemed.
If you are not clean, but forgiven, what is the point worrying about dirt or getting more dirty?
And if Jesus is everything and we do nothing, why not just lay back and enjoy the ride.
Self righteousness is doing anything good. Doing good is evil. Doing evil is just who you are, get used
to it.
What does scripture say
7 He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
1 John 3
So those who contradict scripture are not of God. Those who teach sinning is just what we are, are
not of God. No matter how these folk appear, they do not have the Holy Spirit talking from them.
Now this is not my judgement, this is John speaking, Gods word.
Have any of these folk repented and changed their language or direction? No.
All that has happened is they have become more belligerent and abusive which indicates scripture
is correct and they are not of God.
We have many DESCRIPTIVE passages, like the ones in the OP. They describe what a born again child of God should do.
They are not PRESCRIPTIVE, meaning you MUST do X in order to be saved.
It absolutely doesn't mean we shouldn't do those descriptive passages. The Holy Spirit is IN us, and directing us to do those things, and if we don't, our Heavenly Father corrects us, like EVERY Good Good Father would.
They are not PRESCRIPTIVE, meaning you MUST do X in order to be saved.
It absolutely doesn't mean we shouldn't do those descriptive passages. The Holy Spirit is IN us, and directing us to do those things, and if we don't, our Heavenly Father corrects us, like EVERY Good Good Father would.
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I often hear works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics) quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follows believing in the Son. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follows" believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son.
*If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely."
*So in 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
We receive the Holy Spirit and obtain salvation when we obey Him/obey the gospel by choosing to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ/believe the gospel. (Acts 11:17,18; Romans 1:16) In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who have believed our report." *Nothing there about salvation by works.
Attempting to be justified by the law is being hindered from obeying the truth. (Galatians 2:16)
Once again, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) *Nothing there about salvation by works.
To "keep" (Greek word "tereo" which means to guard, observe, watch over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence that we love Jesus/abide in His love. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers.
*If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely."
*So in 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
We receive the Holy Spirit and obtain salvation when we obey Him/obey the gospel by choosing to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ/believe the gospel. (Acts 11:17,18; Romans 1:16) In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who have believed our report." *Nothing there about salvation by works.
Attempting to be justified by the law is being hindered from obeying the truth. (Galatians 2:16)
Once again, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) *Nothing there about salvation by works.
To "keep" (Greek word "tereo" which means to guard, observe, watch over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence that we love Jesus/abide in His love. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers.
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27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
John 10
The above is a statement of security. We are His sheep, we listen to Him and follow Him.
And to this group Jesus gives them eternal life.
Now this is not the group who wander off and do their own thing not listening to Jesus.
It is not those who claim the name of Jesus, refuse to repent and stop sinning or open
their hearts and let love come in.
Jesus is the one who gives eternal life, not man, or those claiming to believe in Him while denying
the calling to love and obedience.
A simple test is put a statement of Jesus to people and ask them what it means.
If they say, Jesus was being sarcastic, He does not expect us to behave like that, you know they
are not His sheep.
Can a sheep wander off and be lost? Yes. But if they repent and return great rejoicing.
4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders
6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'
7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
John 10
The above is a statement of security. We are His sheep, we listen to Him and follow Him.
And to this group Jesus gives them eternal life.
Now this is not the group who wander off and do their own thing not listening to Jesus.
It is not those who claim the name of Jesus, refuse to repent and stop sinning or open
their hearts and let love come in.
Jesus is the one who gives eternal life, not man, or those claiming to believe in Him while denying
the calling to love and obedience.
A simple test is put a statement of Jesus to people and ask them what it means.
If they say, Jesus was being sarcastic, He does not expect us to behave like that, you know they
are not His sheep.
Can a sheep wander off and be lost? Yes. But if they repent and return great rejoicing.
4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders
6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'
7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15
L
Being that believing is salvation only those who believe in their heart and confess their belief, are saved, there is no "I made a choice", or decision, or said the magic incantation or any of that kind of weird stuff.
If someone says they believe but they act contrary to what they say they believe then that is evidence of cognitive dissonance, or they really don't believe.
I don't understand how people can say they made a choice to believe, I know people make a choice to reject believing, but don't know how some one can believe by force of will.
I believe because it is what I know to be true, if I make a choice in the matter it is only to reject that truth, because the truth is just that; the truth.
This is the error of decision theology, that someone can make a choice and then by their actions unmake that choice, which we do in material matters all the time. However in foundational truth it doesn't apply. If you believe a thing you will never unbelieve it unless you are availed of evidence to the contrary, or deceived by false evidence to the contrary. Which I guess is theoretically possible in a Christian however not likely.
Now it may also be possible that someone fool themselves into thinking they believe and then later figure out that they in fact do not believe.
If someone says they believe but they act contrary to what they say they believe then that is evidence of cognitive dissonance, or they really don't believe.
I don't understand how people can say they made a choice to believe, I know people make a choice to reject believing, but don't know how some one can believe by force of will.
I believe because it is what I know to be true, if I make a choice in the matter it is only to reject that truth, because the truth is just that; the truth.
This is the error of decision theology, that someone can make a choice and then by their actions unmake that choice, which we do in material matters all the time. However in foundational truth it doesn't apply. If you believe a thing you will never unbelieve it unless you are availed of evidence to the contrary, or deceived by false evidence to the contrary. Which I guess is theoretically possible in a Christian however not likely.
Now it may also be possible that someone fool themselves into thinking they believe and then later figure out that they in fact do not believe.
Amen! Works-salvationists often confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture and also "re-define" belief/faith to "include" works and the end result is salvation through faith PLUS WORKS. I've heard Roman Catholics teach salvation through faith "infused" with works and Campbellites teach salvation through faith "conjoined" with works. Such people desperately try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith (and seek salvation based on the merit of their works) but the shoe does not fit. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)
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The one that shows we are sinner is the scripture. The word of God is a mirror that reflects who you really are. The one convicting us from error or sinfulness is the Holy Spirit.
James 1:23-25 King James Version (KJV)
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
John 16:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
James 1:23-25 King James Version (KJV)
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
John 16:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
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This clearly demonstrates a passage can be read two ways, the words interpreted differently.
It is clearly up to the reader to decide for themselves as people will definitively say different
things about the same scripture, so it is up to everybody to make up their own mind.
I have seen people deny their own words right after writing them, so it is possible to ignore
what is actually there without admitting it. God unfortunately is not so kind on the day
of judgement and things will be very clear then.
It is clearly up to the reader to decide for themselves as people will definitively say different
things about the same scripture, so it is up to everybody to make up their own mind.
I have seen people deny their own words right after writing them, so it is possible to ignore
what is actually there without admitting it. God unfortunately is not so kind on the day
of judgement and things will be very clear then.
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