Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I’m a fairly active preacher to non-Christians, but I haven’t lately since I’ve been busy, but thanks for reminding me to start again. It’s definitely one of my callings. Yes, I do inform them about the truth and it’s all for the glory of God.

1 Timothy 4
8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

Dear Father, Your Son said we would face those who speak evil of us for his sake. So I would like to glorify and praise You. I know I have a reward in heaven. Also, to bless those who curse us. Please bless this person, God, for I know we all need mercy and patience. Thank You for being patient and merciful to me, a sinner, in need of Your help. Praise and glory to You forever. May Your will be done. Thank You for the forgiveness I have. In Jesus my Lord and Savior’s name, amen.

You have to deny too much of Scripture to believe OSAS. Like the following story...

At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’


The parable of the seeds also disprove OSAS

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”


I have already shared John 15:6, KJV: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:38-39).”

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2 Peter 3:17

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I can walk away right up until the time I actually recieve his love and experience his salvation.

At that time, I am a new creature. I truly understand who I was. and I learn more and more how deep a sinner I am (was)

no one would turn away after this.

we only turn away, because as John said, we were never of them.

I'm sorry, no, I have provided Scripture that proves that to be incorrect. Simply ignoring it doesn't make them go awake. You can have your name blotted from the Book of Life, you can walk away from salvation.

 

[Magenta]

1 Peter 1:23 plus 1 John 5:4

 

[mailmandan]

A preacher of OSAS once said “If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn’t go to Hell.” He even said, “I couldn’t go to Hell if I wanted to.”

I wonder if OSAS believers would defend that comment.

I would not defend it and no preacher in his right mind would say that.

James 5:19, 20

“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7). "Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". The word "psuche" is never translated as "spirit."

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error. So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16)

2 Peter 2:20-22. It says, “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

1 Corinthians 10:12

. “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.”

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

1 John 1:7

. “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” If is a conditional statement.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. Walking in the light is 'descriptive' of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is associated with "children of the devil" and not children of God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'm sorry, no, I have provided Scripture that proves that to be incorrect. Simply ignoring it doesn't make them go awake. You can have your name blotted from the Book of Life, you can walk away from salvation.

You have your name blotted out when you die in unbelief.

You did not provide any scripture. Your argument is with John. He said they left because they were never of us. if they were of us they would have stayed, but to prove they were never truly of us, they left.

who are they? People who claimed to be part of us (the church) but are now non believers. anti-christs. who reject the salvation that they could have had.

Eternal life is eternal.. Its based 0n Gods reputation. if one is lost after being saved. then Gods reputation is flawed..

 

[mailmandan]

The Bible teaches that you can turn away from the truth. No one can take away your salvation, no one can take you from God's hand, but you can walk away.

Luke 9:62
“Jesus replied, ‘No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.’”

The NIV reads - Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.” So was Jesus talking about membership or service? Jesus creates a picture of a farmer who rather than looking forward at a distant object is instead looking back. If you look straight ahead at a far away object while plowing the result is straight rows in the earth. If you fail to do so, then the rows will not be straight, but crooked.

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Abandon means they had faith, they were saved and left the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced by the Roman Catholic church in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids it's clergy to marry. This same church has other doctrines of demons such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will TURN AWAY from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Matthew 24:9-13

Only those who stand firm to the end demonstrate that their faith was firmly rooted and established from the start. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Many will turn away from the truth, many. So they had the truth and turned back. He who stands firm, who does not turn back from the faith.

So you are saying that many genuine born again Christians will turn away from the faith and lose their salvation? God said that His saints are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)

“Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation– IF indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.”

Colossians 1:21-23

Again, continuing in faith is a confirmation that faith was firmly rooted and established from the start. The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith." That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Gk. particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away?

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow, temporary faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.

1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vainand worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe).

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

“…But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be CUT OFF.”

Romans 11:20-22

The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19)

“See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that TURNS AWAY from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

Hebrews 3:12-14

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Remain in me,

and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. IF a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is THROWN AWAY and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into THE FIRE and burned.”

John 15:1-6

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

I don't see how anyone could argue OSAS after reading these verses. And there are more. The Bible clearly doesn't teach OSAS.

After reading those verses in context and after properly harmonizing scripture with scripture I can see how one could argue for OSAS. Are God's saints preserved forever or not? (Psalm 37:28) Will Jesus' sheep receive eternal life, never perish, never be snatched from His hand or not? (John 10:27-28) Will those He predestined, called, justified also be glorified or not? (Romans 8:30) Is the Holy Spirit the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, after being sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believed the gospel or not? (Ephesians 1:13-14)

I've noticed that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me.

 

[mailmandan]

The parable of the seeds also disprove OSAS

No it doesn't.

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

The seed that fell on the rocky soil did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth (it sprang up but no crop sprang up) and and because it had no root it withered away. (Mark 4:6) There was some motion and movement toward growth, unlike the seed that fell by the wayside, yet the condition changed from sprang up (although it did not yet reach it's desired goal) to withered away. New life is demonstrated by fruit.

Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It can't. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

In regards to the seed that is sown among thorns, the person hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful, produces nothing, yields nothing. It was choked out before reaching it's desired goal.

IN CONTRAST TO - the seed that fell on good soil, the person hears the word and understands it, who INDEED BEARS FRUIT with patience (perseverance) and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

 

[Runningman]

You have to deny too much of Scripture to believe OSAS. Like the following story...

At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’


The parable of the seeds also disprove OSAS

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”


I have already shared John 15:6, KJV: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:38-39).”

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2 Peter 3:17

Yes it’s very clear thank you for proving it with additional resources. The New Testament, is quite clear about many things people prefer to deny and argue endlessly about. I mean, seems like people should read the many proofs and come to a mature understanding of it, but seems like that isn’t the case.

 

[Runningman]

You have your name blotted out when you die in unbelief

That’s not exactly it either.

Consider this:

Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Do you see, post-resurrection, that even though they were resurrected from the sea, death, and hades that the book of life was still searched to see if they were in it?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That’s not exactly it either.

Consider this:

Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Do you see, post-resurrection, that even though they were resurrected from the sea, death, and hades that the book of life was still searched to see if they were in it?

lol

That is the great white throne judgment

the people who will go to hell will go because their names were not written.

Jesus paid the price for all.. he paid the debt. When you die having rejected jesus. Your name is blotted out.. And you will be condemned because of unbelief.

Jesus told us this himself

whoever believes is not condemned. whoever does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed.

there are two ways to heaven

the law. of which no one will enter because of have sinned and fall short.. so the thought we can be good enough to get to heaven is wrong and destroyed

grace - believe in the name of Jesus. Repent and have faith.. not of works. lest anyone be puffed up in pride..

 

[Runningman]

lol

That is the great white throne judgment

the people who will go to hell will go because their names were not written.

Jesus paid the price for all.. he paid the debt. When you die having rejected jesus. Your name is blotted out.. And you will be condemned because of unbelief.

Jesus told us this himself

whoever believes is not condemned. whoever does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed.

there are two ways to heaven

the law. of which no one will enter because of have sinned and fall short.. so the thought we can be good enough to get to heaven is wrong and destroyed

grace - believe in the name of Jesus. Repent and have faith.. not of works. lest anyone be puffed up in pride..

Your point was “You have your name blotted out when you die in unbelief” and I just disproved it using scripture.

why would they search for their names in the book of life post-resurrection if it had already been blotted out after their death? The obvious answer is they need to confirm it before casting them into the lake of fire.

This introduces the possibility that if searching is required, it’s possible that some names will be found not blotted out of the book of life. Otherwise, no searching would be required.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Your point was “You have your name blotted out when you die in unbelief” and I just disproved it using scripture.

You did not disprove anything my friend.

why would they search for their names in the book of life post-resurrection if it had already been blotted out after their death? The obvious answer is they need to confirm it before casting them into the lake of fire.

Because that is the one thing which will determin if they are saved or if they are not. Jesus will use that against them. do you know anything about how a court proceeding takes place?

This introduces the possibility that if searching is required, it’s possible that some names will be found not blotted out of the book of life. Otherwise, no searching would be required.

of course there is a possibility. If we die in belief as a child of God. our names will not be blotted out.

what part of he who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already do you not understand?

 

[Runningman]

You did not disprove anything my friend.


Because that is the one thing which will determin if they are saved or if they are not. Jesus will use that against them. do you know anything about how a court proceeding takes place?


of course there is a possibility. If we die in belief as a child of God. our names will not be blotted out.

what part of he who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already do you not understand?

Okay you still don’t understand the verse I gave you. No problem. And you obviously don’t understand what it means to believe in Jesus. It’s more than just believing in him as a real person or agreeing with the things he said. It’s about being his disciple, believing what he said, and doing them. Hence the reason why those who failed to do them can lose their salvation. It’s all over Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the New Testament in general.

 

[HeIsHere]

Okay you still don’t understand the verse I gave you. No problem. And you obviously don’t understand what it means to believe in Jesus. It’s more than just believing in him as a real person or agreeing with the things he said. It’s about being his disciple, believing what he said, and doing them. Hence the reason why those who failed to do them can lose their salvation. It’s all over Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the New Testament in general.

That again would be incorrect.

Believing in Jesus, is believing in what He did on our behalf as the propitiation for our individual sin, repenting of our dead works and accepting His free gift of eternal life.

 

[HeIsHere]

Okay you still don’t understand the verse I gave you. No problem. And you obviously don’t understand what it means to believe in Jesus. It’s more than just believing in him as a real person or agreeing with the things he said. It’s about being his disciple, believing what he said, and doing them. Hence the reason why those who failed to do them can lose their salvation. It’s all over Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the New Testament in general.

I would also add you make salvation (all that that entails) a situation of quid pro quo.

It is not.

No amount of following, or works will ever save anyone and because of this no amount of non works or lack of following will ever revoke the gift.

God is not indebted to us for our work.


Here plain English:

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
Romans 4:4-5

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Okay you still don’t understand the verse I gave you.

I understand it perfectly clear.

No problem. And you obviously don’t understand what it means to believe in Jesus. It’s more than just believing in him as a real person or agreeing with the things he said. It’s about being his disciple, believing what he said, and doing them. Hence the reason why those who failed to do them can lose their salvation. It’s all over Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the New Testament in general.

Your right. it is not just mere belief. It is true repentance and true saving faith.. it is those who have received eternal life. As jesus said. As Moses lifted the serpent. so shall the son of man be lifted up. that whopever believes will NEVER DIE. but HAS ETERNAL LIFE>

Stop looking to yourself. and look to Christ..

 

[HeIsHere]

I understand it perfectly clear.



Your right. it is not just mere belief. It is true repentance and true saving faith.. it is those who have received eternal life. As jesus said. As Moses lifted the serpent. so shall the son of man be lifted up. that whopever believes will NEVER DIE. but HAS ETERNAL LIFE>

Stop looking to yourself. and look to Christ..

I agree with you, but I do not think it is about shallow belief which keeps being promoted on here, but people not receiving the full gospel message like in the Book of Acts.

If the Gospel has been explained clearly and people refuse then they do not have mere belief but have in fact have rejected the Gospel.

When the Gospel has been truncated, people do not know there is more and sometimes people actually reject the Gospel in favor of works based salvation, they have in fact rejected the Gospel so it is not mere belief, it is no belief at all.

That is my thinking anyway and I am sticking to it!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I agree with you, but I do not think it is about shallow belief which keeps being promoted on here, but people not receiving the full gospel message like in the Book of Acts.

If the Gospel has been explained clearly and people refuse then they do not have mere belief but have in fact have rejected the Gospel.

When the Gospel has been truncated, people do not know there is more and sometimes people actually reject the Gospel in favor of works based salvation, they have in fact rejected the Gospel so it is not mere belief, it is no belief at all.

That is my thinking anyway and I am sticking to it!

I would agree. But Judas recieved the full gospel message. and he believed, but did not believe. Same with most of the jews.. Many of them believed, but their true faith was in the law.. so while they believed, they added the law (works) to the gospel..

this is what I call mere belief.. Also in james. they claimed to believe, yet did not have works.. Even demons believe.. That is mere belief but a lack of repentance. .

 

[Runningman]

okay have it your way. There’s clearly no getting through. I’ll continue in my beliefs and you all continue in yours.