Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,901
Dec 18, 2021
5,016
1,540
113
#2,901
BreatheFocusBet said:
Yes.

yet not

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

and still

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.




What is a clear example of this in Galatians, without being inductive?

Paul seems to be wholesale talking to a group of people without making any distinctions within the group.


Interesting that osas seems to hinge on this question,

Galatians 5:25-26
Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.
Click to expand...
Yep. notice the warning.. Why warn them if they are ok??

Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

Galatians 4:8-9
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles?

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?


(again, correct me if I assumed wrong about your position)
I am curious if everyone else with osas thinks Paul thought these people ^ did not have the Holy Spirit and were not saved, is it not obvious that Paul thought they had the Holy Spirit here?

And if so, is it not obvious that he thought Christ could become, to these same people (in bold)
Galatians 5:2
Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

?
Click to expand...
once again I ask you

can someone be saved by the law?
Can someone be saved because their faith is in works to maintain their salvation and not grace (the fools)
Can someone be saved because they have fallen for a different gospel. which is different than pauls?

I have answered your question numerous times. Now please answer mine.. You appear to be a proponent that the above people are saved.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,902
Dec 18, 2021
5,016
1,540
113
#2,902
ResidentAlien said:
If they come to God in belief aren't they saved?
Click to expand...
Unless they have truly repented and come to true saving faith. they are not saved.. Mental agreement is not the means of salvation.

Aren't you then saying a saved person can lose their salvation by working to keep it? I'm not trying to cause you doubt, just pointing out a lot of what you say is illogical.
Click to expand...
I am saying a person who claims to believe, yet are basing their salvation on the work they do have failed to repent. and failed to come to true saving faith. so they have never been saved..

Titus 3: 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


what part of not by works. Of by his mercy. and eternal life seems to be hard to understand?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#2,903
Jul 31, 2013
36,684
13,139
113
#2,903
Runningman said:
Matthias wasn't added until later. Now you must repent.
Click to expand...
Matthias and Barnabas were both present in Matthew 19.
Read it again:


Acts 1:21-23
"Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.


Jesus had a lot more than 12 disciples.
Your insistence that Jesus prophesied Judas would sit on a throne with Him in the resurrection makes Jesus a false prophet.
Therefore your position is wrong.
 
T

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
#2,904
Jan 17, 2023
3,288
1,375
113
#2,904
Runningman said:
And I’m curious, but I’ll ask this gently because all of us probably have friends and/or family who are not Christian or were, at one time or another, then they committed apostasy.

So I don’t see what the issue is here with just accepting what the Bible says rather than creating these wild theories, redefining words, ignoring context, etc.

So is OSAS a personal pet doctrine to anyone? Would you have to accept someone didn’t make it to salvation because they didn’t hold firmly to the gospel? Perhaps you’re a teacher/pastor and now you’re realizing the full scope of people you’ve misread your entire life and would rather create a false gospel rather than face the reality and repent?

I’m genuinely surprised at some people here, so far off base, they can’t recognize good when they see it. It also deeply concerns me. I wouldn’t be here trying to help if I didn’t care. I pray for you all often and thank you for the curses and evil words against me that I’ve endured for the sake of Christ. You all are making me stronger and better than before. Glory to God.
Click to expand...

A preacher of OSAS once said “If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn’t go to Hell.” He even said, “I couldn’t go to Hell if I wanted to.”

I wonder if OSAS believers would defend that comment.

James 5:19, 20

“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”


2 Peter 2:20-22. It says, “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”


1 Corinthians 10:12. “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.”


1 John 1:7. “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” If is a conditional statement.


 
R

Runningman

Banned
#2,905
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,679
113
#2,905
posthuman said:
Matthias and Barnabas were both present in Matthew 19.
Read it again:


Acts 1:21-23
"Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.


Jesus had a lot more than 12 disciples.
Your insistence that Jesus prophesied Judas would sit on a throne with Him in the resurrection makes Jesus a false prophet.
Therefore your position is wrong.
Click to expand...
Read it again.

The apostles who are “the 12” include Judas and the others. Those were the ones who were told they would have eternal life. You have repeatedly called Christ, the Son of God, a liar by your own standard of judgement.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#2,906
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,679
113
#2,906
ThereRoseaLamb said:
A preacher of OSAS once said “If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn’t go to Hell.” He even said, “I couldn’t go to Hell if I wanted to.”

I wonder if OSAS believers would defend that comment.

James 5:19, 20

“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”


2 Peter 2:20-22. It says, “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”


1 Corinthians 10:12. “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.”


1 John 1:7. “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” If is a conditional statement.


Click to expand...
Excellent points and yes if you press a OSAS adherent long enough they will eventually admit they could commit genocide with a cheerful heart, never repent, and still go to heaven.

Besides all of that, the Bible flatly disproves OSAS. We’ve gone over it many times and this debate will likely never end. The prophets are rolling in the graves right now at some of the teachings coming from some parts of the church.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,907
Dec 18, 2021
5,016
1,540
113
#2,907
ThereRoseaLamb said:
A preacher of OSAS once said “If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn’t go to Hell.” He even said, “I couldn’t go to Hell if I wanted to.”

I wonder if OSAS believers would defend that comment.

James 5:19, 20

“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”


2 Peter 2:20-22. It says, “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”


1 Corinthians 10:12. “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.”


1 John 1:7. “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” If is a conditional statement.


Click to expand...
let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

We can not judge another persons salvation without judging our own.

The question should be asked, if he was saved at all if there is a question at all. John said whoever sins has never met God. if this person is living in sin and continually sins with no remorse and no chastening of God (which believe me, he would feel it) then was he ever saved to begin with

however to use this argument to reject eternal security, is just a straw man.. Do you trust God to save and complete the work he started as Paul said he WILL (not might) do

or are you relying on your own righteousness.. and ability to not fall into sin?
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,908
Dec 18, 2021
5,016
1,540
113
#2,908
Runningman said:
Read it again.

The apostles who are “the 12” include Judas and the others. Those were the ones who were told they would have eternal life. You have repeatedly called Christ, the Son of God, a liar by your own standard of judgement.
Click to expand...
Judas never had eternal life. He was called a non believer from the beginning and the devil in John 6.

it is sad you would call a non believer saved and headed to heaven..

its also sad you think satan can enter a believer who is kept by God.

why do you reject the power of God?
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,909
Dec 18, 2021
5,016
1,540
113
#2,909
Runningman said:
Excellent points and yes if you press a OSAS adherent long enough they will eventually admit they could commit genocide with a cheerful heart, never repent, and still go to heaven.

Besides all of that, the Bible flatly disproves OSAS. We’ve gone over it many times and this debate will likely never end. The prophets are rolling in the graves right now at some of the teachings coming from some parts of the church.
Click to expand...
no true child of faith would ever think this.

Why don;t you stop thinking you know those people and actually learn who they are and what they believe
 
S

SonLight_Wolf

Active member
#2,910
Jan 14, 2023
205
66
28
#2,910
Runningman said:
The verses I showed you show eternal life is conditional and is something received in the age to come. Rather than just post your commentary, show me verses that support your position please.
Click to expand...
Seriously? When you ignore the New Testament and every passage that disagrees with your pholosophy? So to invite you to reiterate your philosophy in rebuttal again and again?

No.

Live as you think.
If the Christian isn't eternally saved right now, irrevocably, as God said, then Jesus lied and died for nothing. Or, didn't exist at all.

Here's the thing. Jesus loves. And God is not a man that he should lie.

Whatever denomination you're in, leave it. And find the truth of God , The Word in Christ. (Anointing)
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,911
Dec 18, 2021
5,016
1,540
113
#2,911
SonLight_Wolf said:
Seriously? When you ignore the New Testament and every passage that disagrees with your pholosophy? So to invite you to reiterate your philosophy in rebuttal again and again?

No.

Live as you think.
If the Christian isn't eternally saved right now, irrevocably, as God said, then Jesus lied and died for nothing. Or, didn't exist at all.

Here's the thing. Jesus loves. And God is not a man that he should lie.

Whatever denomination you're in, leave it. And find the truth of God , The Word in Christ. (Anointing)
Click to expand...
I do not get it

eternal life.. if it is conditional. it is not eternal. it would be called conditional life.

why is it so hard for them?
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#2,912
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,679
113
#2,912
SonLight_Wolf said:
Seriously? When you ignore the New Testament and every passage that disagrees with your pholosophy? So to invite you to reiterate your philosophy in rebuttal again and again?

No.

Live as you think.
If the Christian isn't eternally saved right now, irrevocably, as God said, then Jesus lied and died for nothing. Or, didn't exist at all.

Here's the thing. Jesus loves. And God is not a man that he should lie.

Whatever denomination you're in, leave it. And find the truth of God , The Word in Christ. (Anointing)
Click to expand...
You’re still commenting and haven’t provided proof that either corrects what I said or expands on it. Let me tell you something about Christianity, it doesn’t really matter what you say. I mean, thanks for sharing your opinion, but regardless of whatever it says, it doesn’t undo the authoritative words of Jesus.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#2,914
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,679
113
#2,914
Everlasting-Grace said:
I do not get it

eternal life.. if it is conditional. it is not eternal. it would be called conditional life.

why is it so hard for them?
Click to expand...
That’s not exactly it.

Eternal life is never ending and not conditional.

The thing is getting the eternal life, that part is conditional.

Paul and the other prophets said perseverance and waiting is required. Jesus said those who are counted worthy will have it in the age to come.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#2,915
May 21, 2022
3,903
1,550
113
#2,915
Runningman said:
That’s not exactly it.

Eternal life is never ending and not conditional.

The thing is getting the eternal life, that part is conditional.

Paul and the other prophets said perseverance and waiting is required. Jesus said those who are counted worthy will have it in the age to come.
Click to expand...
Eternal life is not temporal.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#2,916
Sep 23, 2014
5,950
1,698
113
#2,916
Everlasting-Grace said:
Judas never had eternal life. He was called a non believer from the beginning and the devil in John 6.

it is sad you would call a non believer saved and headed to heaven..

its also sad you think satan can enter a believer who is kept by God.

why do you reject the power of God?
Click to expand...
He accepts Jesus' general witness of His disciples but rejects the Lord's specific witness about Judas, who very obviously was not His nor ever was if you accept the witness of Judas' own words through his association with Jesus. i.e. "You should waste that oil on Jesus' feet (paraphrased)." If he doesn't except Jesus' witness, then what's the value of ours?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#2,917
Jul 31, 2013
36,684
13,139
113
#2,917
Runningman said:
Read it again.

The apostles who are “the 12” include Judas and the others. Those were the ones who were told they would have eternal life. You have repeatedly called Christ, the Son of God, a liar by your own standard of judgement.
Click to expand...
Matthew 19:28
So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The text says "you who have followed Me"
Not "you 12 specific apostles"

You have no basis to accuse me, but your own position on this passage accuses Christ.

What He says is either true or not true.
If He is referring to Judas it is not true.
He is always true.
Therefore He is not referring to Judas,
Therefore you are wrong.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#2,918
Apr 22, 2013
12,967
8,672
113
#2,918
posthuman said:
Matthew 19:28
So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The text says "you who have followed Me"
Not "you 12 specific apostles"

You have no basis to accuse me, but your own position on this passage accuses Christ.

What He says is either true or not true.
If He is referring to Judas it is not true.
He is always true.
Therefore He is not referring to Judas,
Therefore you are wrong.
Click to expand...
His error on this issue pales beside his heresy that Jesus is not God.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#2,919
Jul 31, 2013
36,684
13,139
113
#2,919
Runningman said:
a liar by your own standard of judgement.
Click to expand...
Your standard of judgement seems to be that telling lies doesn't count as lying...

This is untenable, on your part.


Your argument that Judas is proof genuine salvation can be lost simply does not hold any water at all. End of story. I'm not in this thread to defend false characterizations of salvation, but to correct your bad argumentation.

I suggest you work on getting a better position, one which honors Christ, instead of repeating debunked assertions.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.