Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Runningman

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PennEd said:
Incredible that you twist that to mean it isn’t Jesus.

How about Chapter one, where it’s even going to be tougher for you to twist with your hypocrisy that Jesus isn’t God.
This is unequivocally Jesus speaking. The chapter even says so.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
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You really don't read what you're quoting then you turn and call me the twister. You're blind.

Him "which was, and which is to come" is a different person from Jesus Christ. Notice where it says "and" the seven Spirits, "and" Jesus Christ the faithful witness.

Him "which was, and which is to come" is on the throne. The seven Spirits are before his throne. Jesus Christ is a witness.

Revelation 1
4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Verse 8, refers to "the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come." Right? Well, verse 4 already said that Him "which was, and which is to come" is a different person than Jesus Christ. That means verse 8 is referring to God.

You're the one twisting scripture. Please stop.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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PennEd said:
Incredible that you twist that to mean it isn’t Jesus.

How about Chapter one, where it’s even going to be tougher for you to twist with your hypocrisy that Jesus isn’t God.
This is unequivocally Jesus speaking. The chapter even says so.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Click to expand...
 
PennEd

PennEd

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Runningman said:
You really don't read what you're quoting then you turn and call me the twister. You're blind.

Him "which was, and which is to come" is a different person from Jesus Christ. Notice where it says "and" the seven Spirits, "and" Jesus Christ the faithful witness.

Him "which was, and which is to come" is on the throne. The seven Spirits are before his throne. Jesus Christ is a witness.

Revelation 1
4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Verse 8, refers to "the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come." Right? Well, verse 4 already said that Him "which was, and which is to come" is a different person than Jesus Christ. That means verse 8 is referring to God.

You're the one twisting scripture. Please stop.
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So let me get this straight. You are saying that God, the Father, Died? Cause here is the SAME Person YOU just referenced saying HE DIED!

Revelation 1:17-18

New King James Version

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and WAS DEAD, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.


This HAS to be the last nail in the coffin of your heresy.
 
R

Runningman

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PennEd said:
So let me get this straight. You are saying that God, the Father, Died? Cause here is the SAME Person YOU just referenced saying HE DIED!

Revelation 1:17-18

New King James Version

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and WAS DEAD, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.


This HAS to be the last nail in the coffin of your heresy.
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Wow PennEd... it's becoming abundantly clear to me that you're more than just a false accuser, but you just have no business representing the Bible.

The person in verse 17-18 is obviously Jesus Christ talking, not God the Father. Verses 4-5 didn't refer to the one on the throne as the "first and the last" neither did verse 8.

Jesus is the "first and the last" in regards to the resurrection, hence why verse 18 says "was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore."

Colossioans 1
18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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Runningman said:
Wow PennEd... it's becoming abundantly clear to me that you're more than just a false accuser, but you just have no business representing the Bible.
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No. What is abundantly clear is that you will spread your heresy no matter what conclusive Scripture is shown to you..

All 3 members of the Trinty is present or spoken about in chapter 1. Yet John describes ONE VOICE he heard, and the subsequent description of Jesus, who IS God. This Supreme Being, the SAME one John describes, then goes on to talk about how He was dead.

And this is why your heresy is so insidiously dangerous. If Jesus is not fully God, then His substitutionary death was for naught.

Your heresy poses a grave danger to those honest, and confused skeptics that may get a false Gospel from you.

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
 
S

Sipsey

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Some folks are truly looking for answers. Some are too lazy to search. Others are simply a mouthpiece for a cult.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Runningman said:
You’re still talking about this.

The verse says Thomas “saw and believed.” That means Thomas believed because he saw the proof.

Jesus said the ones who are blessed are those who believe and don’t see. Right? Okay. That means Thomas is not blessed because he believed through seeing, but Jesus said the one’s who believe and don’t see are blessed.

Thomas doesn’t fit the ticket you’re proposing. That’s my last response to you on that. If you don’t understand that I can’t help you.
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Lol

He saw and believed, how did Jesus know he believed?

My Lord AND MY GOD

you want to remove thomases words out Its scripture. You can;t ignore them!!!

jesus did not correct him. If your right, jesus is in sin, and we are all doomed to hell
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Runningman said:
Wow PennEd... it's becoming abundantly clear to me that you're more than just a false accuser, but you just have no business representing the Bible.

The person in verse 17-18 is obviously Jesus Christ talking, not God the Father. Verses 4-5 didn't refer to the one on the throne as the "first and the last" neither did verse 8.

Jesus is the "first and the last" in regards to the resurrection, hence why verse 18 says "was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore."

Colossioans 1
18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Click to expand...
Wow. You just do not get it. I have never seen someone twist the word of God as much as you do..then attack others as unlearned/.
 
cv5

cv5

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Runningman said:
That's referring to Jesus' glorious sacrifice. I agree with that. I am asking for something about Jesus getting glory post-crucifixion.
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Tell me you are joking man. Give your head a shake. Dust off your Bible. Try harder. Whatever it takes.

Jhn 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jhn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jhn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jhn 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me !!!where I am!!!; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (speaking to the future in heaven).

Rev 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
 
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anotherperson

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gb9 said:
yes and yes.
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We can only get the benefits that Jesus did if we are him; the oneness of life with him. The Holy Spirit, the Father, and now ourselves cannot possibly divorce from each other.
 
cv5

cv5

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cv5 said:
Tell me you are joking man. Give your head a shake. Dust off your Bible. Try harder. Whatever it takes.

Jhn 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jhn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jhn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jhn 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me !!!where I am!!!; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (speaking to the future in heaven).

Rev 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Click to expand...
EDIT:

Jhn 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me !!!where I am!!!; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (speaking supernaturally to both the present and the future in full glory in heaven).
 
R

Runningman

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Sipsey said:
Some folks are truly looking for answers. Some are too lazy to search. Others are simply a mouthpiece for a cult.
Click to expand...
many denominations are simply cults. It’s quite evident. I’ll just stick with what the Bible says, vetting snd scrutinizing it like the Bereans.
 
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anotherperson

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Rosemaryx said:
John 20:28
Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!”
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Yes, those who called Jesus "Lord, Lord" did not obey the Father, and the only instructions the Father ever gave concerning Jesus was to put our trust in him; a concern that can only be done by those who have a need of rescue from the doom of their sin. We are invited to allow ourself included in the Trinity, in our own capacity, never to divorce or separate from each other for eternity.
 
cv5

cv5

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Runningman said:
many denominations are simply cults. It’s quite evident. I’ll just stick with what the Bible says, vetting snd scrutinizing it like the Bereans.
Click to expand...
The Bereans were Jews BTW.

Act 17:10
As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.

Act 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
 
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anotherperson

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Runningman said:
many denominations are simply cults. It’s quite evident. I’ll just stick with what the Bible says, vetting snd scrutinizing it like the Bereans.
Click to expand...
Agreed. The criterion of indentification is whether or not a people believe that by their actions, in the end, God will owe them Heaven or not.
 
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anotherperson

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ResidentAlien said:
There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.
Click to expand...
As always, the actions of the reborn in Christ are continual. Even when the Christian is involving himself in sin his new nature is still the prominent, and only truth of the Believer. This is how regret and sorrow follow the sin. X-out your #1 as Christians are known for their fruit, but mistakes do not rule out their rebirth.
 
A

anotherperson

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ResidentAlien said:
There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.
Click to expand...
You don't know the meaning of salvation and you need the gospel. You need an interpreter.
 
R

Runningman

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cv5 said:
The Bereans were Jews BTW.

Act 17:10
As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.

Act 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Click to expand...
You’re right and they searched the scriptures daily to see what Paul said is true. Their scripture would have been the Old Testament. Since they searched them then they would have believed this:

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
 
PennEd

PennEd

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Runningman said:
many denominations are simply cults. It’s quite evident. I’ll just stick with what the Bible says, vetting snd scrutinizing it like the Bereans.
Click to expand...

2 Timothy 3:7–9
The New King James Version


7 always learning and never able gto come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 hNow as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: imen of corrupt minds, jdisapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, kas theirs also was.
 
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