Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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I think john 6 sums it up
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
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But only some are obedient to the command. If this were not so, no one must needs be cast into the lake of fire.
Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive G2983 abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
G2983 - lambanō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive G2983 abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
G2983 - lambanō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
- to take
- to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
- to take up a thing to be carried
- to take upon one's self
- to take in order to carry away
- without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
- to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
- to claim, procure, for one's self
- to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
- of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
- to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
- to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
- catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
- to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
- to claim, procure, for one's self
- to take
- to admit, receive
- to receive what is offered
- not to refuse or reject
- to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
- to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
- to take, to choose, select
- to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
- to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
- to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
We are not authorized to make any decisions in that matter. God has His perfectly just and righteous reasons for doing so.
But we do know that His elect sheep cannot by any means perish, and will NEVER see the LoF.
Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
1Pe 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
But we do know that His elect sheep cannot by any means perish, and will NEVER see the LoF.
Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
1Pe 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
I responded precisely to this (#1) assertion of yours. People ARE thrown into the LoF. By Jesus Himself.
THIS is why I said "We are not authorized to make any decisions in that matter."
It appears that you do not agree with so-called election. It is true nevertheless. Exactly why, exactly how nobody knows. But it is boilerplate doctrine with massive Biblical support.
BTW.....I also agree that men do in fact choose in and of themselves to reject the gospel. They are not His sheep.
Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
THIS is why I said "We are not authorized to make any decisions in that matter."
It appears that you do not agree with so-called election. It is true nevertheless. Exactly why, exactly how nobody knows. But it is boilerplate doctrine with massive Biblical support.
BTW.....I also agree that men do in fact choose in and of themselves to reject the gospel. They are not His sheep.
Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Doing you a favor. Your premise is wrong - there is no "how to". No one can make themselves born neither physically nor spiritually.
Only the Holy Spirit does, not the person - God's choice and action not ours- no one dictates to God.
Further, one's belief (faith) comes only FROM being born again, it does not cause being born again - it is as a fruit of the Spirit.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Jas 1:17-18 KJV]
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
[Jhn 3:5-6, 8 KJV]
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ...
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[1Pe 1:22 KJV] 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Only the Holy Spirit does, not the person - God's choice and action not ours- no one dictates to God.
Further, one's belief (faith) comes only FROM being born again, it does not cause being born again - it is as a fruit of the Spirit.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Jas 1:17-18 KJV]
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
[Jhn 3:5-6, 8 KJV]
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ...
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[1Pe 1:22 KJV] 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
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Think you need to factor-in Romans 1:5 which sets the stage for the above.
Notice the "by whom". That means those who receive it do so only because it is Christ who causes them to.
[Rom 1:3, 5 KJV]
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; ...
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Notice the "by whom". That means those who receive it do so only because it is Christ who causes them to.
[Rom 1:3, 5 KJV]
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; ...
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
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well then I have my answer
Your wrong. period. Jesus did tell him how. it just does not fit with your theology. so you will not even discuss the possibility it can be true.
You can't read John 3, and not see what Jesus told Nicodemus, He even told him he should know exactly what he means, as a teacher.. and explains how..
again, we will have to agree to disagree.. You want to try to stop me, and attack me again, feel free.. but I hope you saw last night. I will not take it to kindly when someone falsly accuses me
Your wrong. period. Jesus did tell him how. it just does not fit with your theology. so you will not even discuss the possibility it can be true.
You can't read John 3, and not see what Jesus told Nicodemus, He even told him he should know exactly what he means, as a teacher.. and explains how..
again, we will have to agree to disagree.. You want to try to stop me, and attack me again, feel free.. but I hope you saw last night. I will not take it to kindly when someone falsly accuses me
Not that He helps - He MAKES. See the "will" as in He WILL?
[Heb 8:10 KJV] 10
For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[Heb 8:10 KJV] 10
For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
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That's right. The unsaved. People who rejected the gospel.
In the Calvinist understanding? You're absolutely right!
No, it's false. God wants everyone to be saved.
If you'd realize it's a false doctrine you wouldn't have to wonder anymore.
No it isn't. God wants everyone to be saved. He gave us free will. All people have the capacity and ability to choose to believe the gospel.
But they could be. God even wanted the Pharisees to believe, and to be baptized by JtB..
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
yep.
In the Calvinist understanding? You're absolutely right!
No, it's false. God wants everyone to be saved.
If you'd realize it's a false doctrine you wouldn't have to wonder anymore.
No it isn't. God wants everyone to be saved. He gave us free will. All people have the capacity and ability to choose to believe the gospel.
But they could be. God even wanted the Pharisees to believe, and to be baptized by JtB..
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
yep.
I have no idea why some (VARob?) have come to the conclusion that God's "will" has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of men.
As if God has no input or involvement in this absolutely critical matter whatsoever.
The Bible says otherwise. In devastatingly robust and unequivocal fashion.
As if God has no input or involvement in this absolutely critical matter whatsoever.
The Bible says otherwise. In devastatingly robust and unequivocal fashion.
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"should" meaning that he didn't, even though Jesus had explained it to him. So, his human intellect was insufficient
to grasp what Jesus was telling him. According to Jesus he should already have known that.
[Jhn 3:4, 9-10 KJV]
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? ...
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
to grasp what Jesus was telling him. According to Jesus he should already have known that.
[Jhn 3:4, 9-10 KJV]
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? ...
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Here is what God wills:
1 Tim 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
You can read God's input above. Concerning involvment, God sent His Son who died for the sins of the world. He made it available for anyone to be saved.
Sincerety is no guarantee of the truth.
1 Tim 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
You can read God's input above. Concerning involvment, God sent His Son who died for the sins of the world. He made it available for anyone to be saved.
Sincerety is no guarantee of the truth.
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