Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[cv5]

Thats specifically referring to the jews of Christs day, who had the privilege of the law and the oracles of God, but for the most part they were reprobate and rejected of God.

It applies today to false christians and religions, they were never saved to begin with, they were always in the purpose of God vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction.

The question remains: WHY this failure on the part of some and not others?
Answer: They WRONGLY deduce that God is evil because they have concluded that ultimately, He is the Author of evil and origin of it. This is the very same lie that Satan proffers day in and day out. And the ancillary lie that God has no solution for sin, therefore He is not omniscient and all powerful.

Here is the expanded version:

Mat 25:24
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26
His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[DJT_47]

So then, how do you know who was never saved to begin with? They are servants of the Lord, they call Him Lord, they are in the house, the church.

You have to 1st ask and understand how one becomes saved to begin with, and compare what is believed, taught and practiced according go scripture as opposed to what others believe, teach, and practice.

When you look at ALL pertinent scriptures regarding salvation you end up with a short list of requirements.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of your belief in Christ as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 which is consistent with Romans 10:9
3. Repentance as were tge Jews told to do on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2:38
4. Baptism: immersion in water for the remission of sins also per Acts 2:38.

This is how you are saved and added to the body of Christ by the Lord per Acts 2:47.

If you believe and teach otherwise, are you then not inconsistent with scripture and fall into the category of persons or groups being discussed as per your question?

 

[ZNP]

You have to 1st ask and understand how one becomes saved to begin with, and compare what is believed, taught and practiced according go scripture as opposed to what others believe, teach, and practice.

When you look at ALL pertinent scriptures regarding salvation you end up with a short list of requirements.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of your belief in Christ as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 which is consistent with Romans 10:9
3. Repentance as were tge Jews told to do on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2:38
4. Baptism: immersion in water for the remission of sins also per Acts 2:38.

This is how you are saved and added to the body of Christ by the Lord per Acts 2:47.

If you believe and teach otherwise, are you then not inconsistent with scripture and fall into the category of persons or groups being discussed as per your question?

My point is that "once saved always saved" simply takes every verse that describes a person "losing" their salvation as having never been saved.

So it is simply a matter of semantics.

If someone falls away then "they were never saved", if the Lord says "depart from Me I never knew you" then they were never saved. But it is quite clear, they didn't realize that. Didn't we do this in your name and didn't we do that in your name?

So it would be much more beneficial, instead of playing semantics games, to focus on what you need to do to have the assurance of salvation.

What is also very clear is that they thought they were saved. Someone taught them that they were saved and then they discovered they weren't. Now who could be teaching people "don't worry, you are saved" when they aren't?

 

[DJT_47]

My point is that "once saved always saved" simply takes every verse that describes a person "losing" their salvation as having never been saved.

So it is simply a matter of semantics.

If someone falls away then "they were never saved", if the Lord says "depart from Me I never knew you" then they were never saved. But it is quite clear, they didn't realize that. Didn't we do this in your name and didn't we do that in your name?

So it would be much more beneficial, instead of playing semantics games, to focus on what you need to do to have the assurance of salvation.

What is also very clear is that they thought they were saved. Someone taught them that they were saved and then they discovered they weren't. Now who could be teaching people "don't worry, you are saved" when they aren't?

Agreed. Falling away and losing salvation as warned of to the Hebrews in the Hebrew letter is different than never having been saved to begin with.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Thats specifically referring to the jews of Christs day, who had the privilege of the law and the oracles of God, but for the most part they were reprobate and rejected of God.

It applies today to false christians and religions, they were never saved to begin with, they were always in the purpose of God vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction.

So you believe the disciples Jesus was teaching privately, were unsaved Jews?



That is truly sad.




JPT

 

[brightfame52]

@ZNP

So then, how do you know who was never saved to begin with?

They dont persevere in the Faith , because the ones who persevere were being kept and preserved by Gods power and grace.

 

[brightfame52]

@cv5

The question remains: WHY this failure on the part of some and not others?

The Power and Grace of God makes the difference, those being preserved will persevere, they are Gods elect, chosen, all others were reprobate.

 

[brightfame52]

@justpassinthrough

So you believe the disciples Jesus was teaching privately, were unsaved Jews?

No save judas the one who betrayed Him

 

[mailmandan]

@justpassinthrough

No save judas the one who betrayed Him

True. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[cv5]

@cv5



The Power and Grace of God makes the difference, those being preserved will persevere, they are Gods elect, chosen, all others were reprobate.

Still, the fallen angels made a choice. Predicated upon them believing lies. False accusations against the Almighty.

 

[notmyown]

Still, the fallen angels made a choice. Predicated upon them believing lies. False accusations against the Almighty.

how do we know this?

 

[ZNP]

@ZNP



They dont persevere in the Faith , because the ones who persevere were being kept and preserved by Gods power and grace.

Again, semantics. You have twenty people in the congregation, ten years later there are only ten left, so you assume the ten who are no longer there were unsaved because they didn't persevere.

That is a cruel way to look at it. Perhaps they aren't there anymore because in your midst is someone quite evil, they discovered it and left?

Or perhaps they have been attacked by the wolves who have secretly crept in. But instead of seeing them as the victims and culprit is the shepherd who didn't protect the flock, you make the victims the culprit. They were devoured by wolves because they weren't really saved.

Perhaps they were Antipas, the faithful witness who was martyred among you.

Or, how about Philadelphia? The Lord told them they would not go out anymore. It seems everyone who was in Philadelphia had been in a previous church but had been forced to go out, to leave.

Or how about Sardis, the Lord told them that they needed to repent otherwise He might blot their name out of the book of life. Righteous judgement is to do unto you as you have done unto others. I don't believe the Lord would blot someone's name out if they hadn't also blotted others names out by excommunicating them.

When I read the Bible it is our responsibility to go and do likewise as the good Samaritan had done, or as the woman who swept the house for the gold coin or as the shepherd did when he found the lost sheep. This doctrine of yours is the opposite, it teaches you that if someone falls away it is their fault.

 

[cv5]

how do we know this?

Due to the fact of being created with free will. Just as we are.

 

[brightfame52]

Still, the fallen angels made a choice. Predicated upon them believing lies. False accusations against the Almighty.

The elect Angels were preserved from sinning, by the power and Grace of God

 

[brightfame52]

Again, semantics. You have twenty people in the congregation, ten years later there are only ten left, so you assume the ten who are no longer there were unsaved because they didn't persevere.

That is a cruel way to look at it. Perhaps they aren't there anymore because in your midst is someone quite evil, they discovered it and left?

Or perhaps they have been attacked by the wolves who have secretly crept in. But instead of seeing them as the victims and culprit is the shepherd who didn't protect the flock, you make the victims the culprit. They were devoured by wolves because they weren't really saved.

Perhaps they were Antipas, the faithful witness who was martyred among you.

Or, how about Philadelphia? The Lord told them they would not go out anymore. It seems everyone who was in Philadelphia had been in a previous church but had been forced to go out, to leave.

Or how about Sardis, the Lord told them that they needed to repent otherwise He might blot their name out of the book of life. Righteous judgement is to do unto you as you have done unto others. I don't believe the Lord would blot someone's name out if they hadn't also blotted others names out by excommunicating them.

When I read the Bible it is our responsibility to go and do likewise as the good Samaritan had done, or as the woman who swept the house for the gold coin or as the shepherd did when he found the lost sheep. This doctrine of yours is the opposite, it teaches you that if someone falls away it is their fault.

Again:

They dont persevere in the Faith , because the ones who persevere were being kept and preserved by Gods power and grace.

 

[cv5]

The elect Angels were preserved from sinning, by the power and Grace of God

Whatever the case, God does not violate the free will of His created angels or men. This business of misrepresenting God as a tyrannical control freak is utterly disproven Biblically every single time that this question is raised by Satan. God has an answer and is justified at every point.

 

[Underwhosewings]

These were saved and baptised.
Same principles.
They took the blood of the lamb and applied it.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[5] But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
[6] Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
[7] Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
[8] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
[9] Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
[10] Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
[11] Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
[12] Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

take heed.

 

[cv5]

The elect Angels were preserved from sinning, by the power and Grace of God

Just to let you know, the example of God "guarding" the way to the tree of life (preventing Adam and Eve from eating of it in their now fallen state) is proof positive of OSAS.

Remember, both sincerely confessed their sins, and God "covered them with The Blood" aka saved/redeemed them firstly.
THEN came the "guarding" to prevent them from eternal death aka eating from the second tree.

 

[ZNP]

Just to let you know, the example of God "guarding" the way to the tree of life (preventing Adam and Eve from eating of it in their now fallen state) is proof positive of OSAS.

Remember, both sincerely confessed their sins, and God "covered them with The Blood" aka saved/redeemed them firstly.
THEN came the "guarding" to prevent them from eternal death aka eating from the second tree.

I have never understood the point of this OSAS doctrine since every instance when someone falls away is explained by "they weren't really saved"?

What is the point? There is no assurance of salvation, because if you fall away you weren't really saved to begin with. The only thing I can see is this doctrine is like salve to the levitical priest who passed the man beaten on the other side of the road. It isn't his responsibility, if the guy had really been saved he wouldn't have been beaten up and left on the side of the road.

However I have heard that Mega Church pastors use this doctrine to teach people they can live in sin and still be saved. I have not heard this directly but apparently it is used as a way to short circuit the need to confess and repent of sins. At least this is what some who come out of these places have testified.

 

[cv5]

I have never understood the point of this OSAS doctrine since every instance when someone falls away is explained by "they weren't really saved"?

What is the point? There is no assurance of salvation, because if you fall away you weren't really saved to begin with. The only thing I can see is this doctrine is like salve to the levitical priest who passed the man beaten on the other side of the road. It isn't his responsibility, if the guy had really been saved he wouldn't have been beaten up and left on the side of the road.

What is the folly in the question of who may be "falling away"?

The folly lies with the fact that we do not know who is truly saved and who is not. Only God does the "dividing", only He knows the thoughts and intent of the heart, only His omniscience qualifies Him as the judge.

What we DO have are Biblical exemplars. To which we can refer and believe.