Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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mailmandan

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Hebrews 10:26-31, “For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins, but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents. Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of Elohim underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favour? For we know Him who has said, “Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay, says יהוה.” And again, “יהוה shall judge His people.” It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.”
In regard to Hebrews 10:26-39, see post #19 from the link below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/
 

mailmandan

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I did read



and reply




No one can escape the defilements of the world JUST by knowing ABOUT Yahshua, if it were olny knowledge as you are saying they would not have "escaped the defilements of the world through"

knowledge is word #G1922 ἐπίγνωσις epignosis (e-piy'-gnō-sis) n.
1. recognition.
2. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgment.

[from G1921]
KJV: (ac-)knowledge(-ing, - ment)
Root(s): G1921

ἐπίγνωσις
epignōsis
Thayer Definition:
1) precise and correct knowledge
1a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine

anyone who has " "escaped the defilements of the world through" is clean, no one is clean unless they accept and follow Yahshua.
Your eisegesis does not negate what I shared with you in post #6,312.
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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Am I ok, yeah im fine, my issue is with how you turn a Bibles discussion into a constant focus on me, what I do has no bearing on what the truth in Scripture is.

Quote

"An ad hominem argument is a personal attack against the source of an argument, rather than against the argument itself. Essentially, this means that ad hominem arguments are used to attack opposing views indirectly, by attacking the individuals or groups that support these views. "



Endure.

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

I answed a similar question and you used the theoretical to act like that was my mindset

View attachment 255301 View attachment 255301

while ignoring my actual statement, I try not to fall into the same trap twice.





1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”



You sound like an ad hominem debater, if you can quote where I said ANYTHING about "sinless perfection" please do quote it, if not how about stop the false ad hominem titles.
Ok guy.

It appears you are not ready to even talk about your dangerous and wrong beliefs about WHO KEEPS you saved. Psst! It ain't YOU!


I just hope you don't somehow think you don't sin. Your NEXT sin may be it! You lose it all.

Peace out, and keep working, and "enduring" to keep yourself saved.
 

SpeakTruth101

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I actually agreee with some of what you said in that post, it's not clearly saying the people he is writing to are or are not believers of Yahshua, but I think they are but that they dont understand about the change of the priesthood, if the book is taken as a whole it seems clear that he is not trying to convince them of Yahshua but rather that Yahsua is high priest and the levites are not longer an active priesthood.

Something VERY easy for use to see, but put yourself in the place of those who went to the "temple" daily and was under that prieshood, it for them would be an HUGE change, huge. And overall it seems o be the intent of the letter.

With that said im not stuck on Heb 10 as proof text, I do however take it to heasrt.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Your eisegesis does not negate what I shared with you in post #6,312.
I disagree.

No one has ever " escaped the defilements of the world" without being in Messiah.

2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart command delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
 

SpeakTruth101

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Ok guy.

It appears you are not ready to even talk about your dangerous and wrong beliefs about WHO KEEPS you saved. Psst! It ain't YOU!


I just hope you don't somehow think you don't sin. Your NEXT sin may be it! You lose it all.

Peace out, and keep working, and "enduring" to keep yourself saved.
Constant personal attack with you.

John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Comforter – the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you."

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

1 Peter 1:18-21, “Knowing that you were redeemed from your futile behavior inherited from your fathers, not with what is corruptible, silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but manifested in these last times for your sakes, who through Him believe in Elohim who raised Him from the dead and gave Him esteem, so that your belief and expectation are in Elohim.”

2 Peter 3:9, “יהוה is not slow in regard to the promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward us, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear יהוה, and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you."
 

SpeakTruth101

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Luke 9:62, “But יהושע said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the reign of Elohim.”
This verse seems to pertain to service instead of memembership. Luke 9:62 - Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for sservice in the kingdom of God.”
No comment on this?

Sounds like youre splitting hairs.

Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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I disagree.

No one has ever " escaped the defilements of the world" without being in Messiah.

2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart command delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
Once again, Corruption (Strongs #5356) is a different Greek word from Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) and nothing is mentioned in 2 Peter 2:20 about these dogs and pigs previously being sheep or partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) so I disagree with you.
 

PennEd

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Once again, Corruption (Strongs #5356) is a different Greek word from Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) and nothing is mentioned in 2 Peter 2:20 about these dogs and pigs previously being sheep or partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) so I disagree with you.
I’ve learned over the years that guys like him are right.

THEY CAN lose their salvation!

But those of us who know we can’t are right too.
Because we know the One who holds it, and He knows us too.
 

mailmandan

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No one has ever " escaped the defilements of the world" without being in Messiah.
I already showed you otherwise in post #6,312. I'm not buying what you are selling but you are free to believe as you wish.
 

SpeakTruth101

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I’ve learned over the years that guys like him are right.

THEY CAN lose their salvation!

But those of us who know we can’t are right too.
Because we know the One who holds it, and He knows us too.
you are vile for saying that. if thats not slander I dont know what is.

Also I never said anyone could lose it I said none have recieved it YET:

1 Peter 1:3-9, “Blessed be the Elohim and Father of our Master יהושע Messiah, who according to His great compassion has caused us to be born again (#G313) to a living expectation through the resurrection of יהושע Messiah from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, having been kept in the heavens for you, who are protected by the power of Yah through belief, for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, in which you exult, even though for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by manifold trials, in order that the proving of your belief – much more precious than gold that perishes, and proven by fire – might be found to result in praise and respect and esteem at the revelation of יהושע Messiah, whom having not seen, you love; in whom you exult with unspeakable and esteemed joy, yet not seeing, but believing, obtaining the goal of your belief: a deliverance of lives.”

Luke 21:28, “Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Born Again Unto Salvation:

“saved” is word #G4982 sózó - sózó: to save, Original Word: σῴζω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: sózó, Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo), Short Definition: I save, heal, Definition: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.

Romans 10:9, “That if you confess with your mouth the Master יהושע and believe in your heart that Elohim has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, and so is saved."

shall be saved” is word #G4982 [e] sōthēsē - σωθήσῃ· - you will be saved. σωθήσῃ (sōthēsē) — 3 Occurrences

Hebrews 9:27-28, “And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment, so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto salvation.

Mat 24:29-31, “Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other.”
 

SpeakTruth101

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I already showed you otherwise in post #6,312. I'm not buying what you are selling but you are free to believe as you wish.
Explain to me how one can escape the defilements of the world without being in Messiah.

please do, maybe you can convince me

No one has ever " escaped the defilements of the world" without being in Messiah.
 

mailmandan

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Explain to me how one can escape the defilements of the world without being in Messiah.

please do, maybe you can convince me

No one has ever " escaped the defilements of the world" without being in Messiah.
I already did in post #6,312. If you are still not convinced after reading that post then I can't help you any further.
 

SpeakTruth101

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I already did in post #6,312. If you are still not convinced after reading that post then I can't help you any further.
SO these defilements of the world can or can not make some one fall short of the Kingdom?
 
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People around internetland sometimes say "I've fallen away from Jesus", but surely that means they never truly knew him in the first place?
It's like an Elvis fan saying "I've fallen away from Elvis", right Elv?

 

SpeakTruth101

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Not so. Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4)

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.
Your post supports my idea, nowhere is G3393 μίασμα miasma pollution/defilement exclusive to the "outside"

one means pollution/defilement one means decay, neither are exclusive to inside or outside, that is your made up idea.

G5356 φθορά phthora (ftho-ra') n.
decay, i.e. ruin (spontaneous or inflicted).
{literally or figuratively}
[from G5351]
KJV: corruption, destroy, perish
Root(s): G5351

G3393 μίασμα miasma (miy'-az-ma) n.
1. (morally) contaminated, polluted.
2. (properly) the effect of contamination.
[from G3392 (“miasma”)]
KJV: pollution
Root(s): G3392

It's so clear this is crazy

2 Peter 2:18-22, "For speaking arrogant nonsense, they entice – through the lusts of the flesh, through indecencies – the ones who have indeed escaped from those living in delusion, promising them freedom, though themselves being slaves of corruption – for one is a slave to whatever overcomes him. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first.For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart commande delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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It says: "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah"

2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart command delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
PennEd is correct. Many, through their own human intellect, might come to believe for a while but eventually will, and must, fall away. Only those given faith as a fruit of the Spirit as a gift being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, remain in the faith throughout their lives. There is a great distinction between the two types of faith: one by man; one by God.

[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
 

SpeakTruth101

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PennEd is correct. Many, through their own human intellect, might come to believe for a while but eventually will, and must, fall away. Only those given faith as a fruit of the Spirit as a gift being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, remain in the faith throughout their lives. There is a great distinction between the two types of faith: one by man; one by God.

[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
That verse does not sasy those people "escaped the defilments of the earth" it says they have joy and belief.

Luke 8:12-15,“And those by the wayside are the ones who hear, then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, lest having believed, they should be saved.“And those on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy. And these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of trial fall away.“And that which fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with worries, and riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to perfection.“And that on the good soil are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, retain it, and bear fruit with endurance.
 

rogerg

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read a little farther in that SAME chapter:

Hebrews 10:26-31, “For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins, but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents. Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of Elohim underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favour? For we know Him who has said, “Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay, says יהוה.” And again, “יהוה shall judge His people.” It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.”
Wrong. The laws of the Torah were ended in/by Christ and were never intended by God to bring eternal justification. Man, in trying to
justify himself before God, is the trampling underfoot of Christ, because by it, he sets the salvation Christ had provided at naught.

[Eze 20:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;