Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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rogerg

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I agree, I just thought v 3-8 should not be sepreated from 1-2
And all of which verses define and make apparent the true laws of God, not the laws of Moses nor the laws of man.


[Act 13:39 KJV] 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
 

cv5

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twisted.

I disagree, no one in the Spirit of YHWH would do those things.

That is what Jude warned of.

Jude 1:3-4,Beloved ones, making all haste to write to you concerning our common deliverance, I felt the necessity to write to you urging you to earnestly contend for the belief which was once for all delivered to the set-apart ones.For certain men have slipped in, whose judgment was written about long ago, wicked ones perverting the favour of our Elohim for licentiousness , and denying the only Master יהוה and our Master יהושע Messiah"

Revelation 22:12-16,And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be;I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last.'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;and without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!
Law/works or grace. Take your pick.

But know this: the infinite value of the gift of ETERNAL life cannot be earned or purchased.
 

cv5

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Did you actually read those verses? Do you see the " verily is the love of God perfected"? By "love of God is perfected" means
that it is perfected BY God, not by man. The commandment of God per 1 John 3:23, is to believe in Christ. This can only occur if someone is made perfect by God. Since it is God's commandment, then He must be the one to bring it to fruition to all, and only, those to whom it applies. It does not apply to everyone.
Verse 3:24 confirms that to keep the commandment (of believing the name of Christ), the Holy Spirit must abide in them.
It is all by God, none by man.

[1Jo 2:4-6 KJV]
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[1Jo 3:23 KJV] 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
[1Jo 3:24 KJV] 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Disobedient Christians die all the time in judgement. Are they saved from the second death? Of course. If they were not NOBODY would be saved, as we are all disobedient.

1Jo 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
 

rogerg

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What do you believe about these 2 passages:

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding (G5083) the Commands (G1785) of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."
Do you see below in 1 John 3:23 "And this is his commandment"? It is not to keep the laws of the Torah, but to believe on Christ.

[Rev 12:17 KJV] 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Rev 14:12-13 KJV]
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the commandment of God:

[1Jo 3:23 KJV] 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
 

SpeakTruth101

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So you are saying that King David is not saved? Not true. David was given the gift of eternal mercy by God's unilateral COVENANT.
We are forever saved similarly.

1Ch 17:13
I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
Didnt say that, you pulling a bait and switch,

I disagree.

No one has ever " escaped the defilements of the world" without being in Messiah.

2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart command delivered unto them. For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”
David repented and did not continue in that way, the topic of my conversation that you jumped into was about 2 Peter 2:20-22

"they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first."

If one is in Messiah turns away and murders they are guilty, none can do that and stay in Messiah. Repentance is needed.

Possibly when you jumped in you did not know 2 Peter 2:20-22 was the topic of my discussion with mailman and another person.

But again, men can be forgiven, David repented of that, one in the Spirit of YHWH will not do those things.
 

brightfame52

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My question was do you believe His disciples that He taught privately were unsaved Jews?


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3



Either they were disciples of Jesus Christ or they were unsaved Jews.


At this point, Judas had not fallen away.







JPT
Christ disciples were saved, except judas, the chosen son of perdition, the lost one. Now the other eleven were ethnic jews, however that has nothing to do with why God saved them, salvation is by grace, not race
except that verse does not disprove what I was saying, I agree with verse 9

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
The Just shall live by Faith, that's the Christian life. God given Faith rests in Christ as our Righteousness. Christ Obedience and Death has sanctified and perfected us forever, we abide in that. Heb 10:10,14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You look to yourself and your doings, moreso than looking to Christ and His Accomplishment for His People.
 

SpeakTruth101

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And all of which verses define and make apparent the true laws of God, not the laws of Moses nor the laws of man.


[Act 13:39 KJV] 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
When did I bring up Moses?

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
 

SpeakTruth101

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Law/works or grace. Take your pick.

But know this: the infinite value of the gift of ETERNAL life cannot be earned or purchased.
I trust what He says:

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding (G5083) the Commands (G1785) of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."





Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding (G5083) the Commands (G1785) of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
 

cv5

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When did I bring up Moses?

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
So keep them.

But beware.......one slip on a sin banana peel and it could be over for you.
 

cv5

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I trust what He says:

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding (G5083) the Commands (G1785) of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."





Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding (G5083) the Commands (G1785) of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
Just to let you know, I will have been raptured by then.

And you?
 

SpeakTruth101

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Do you see below in 1 John 3:23 "And this is his commandment"? It is not to keep the laws of the Torah, but to believe on Christ.

[Rev 12:17 KJV] 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Rev 14:12-13 KJV]
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the commandment of God:

[1Jo 3:23 KJV] 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
SO its says believe and believe?

[Rev 12:17 KJV] 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I think you are isolating. If that is the only COmmand then stealing, murder, etc are not sins.

A sin is still a sin.
Mat 22:36-40, “Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

Hebrews 7:23-25, " 23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
 

SpeakTruth101

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The Just shall live by Faith, that's the Christian life. God given Faith rests in Christ as our Righteousness. Christ Obedience and Death has sanctified and perfected us forever, we abide in that. Heb 10:10,14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You look to yourself and your doings, moreso than looking to Christ and His Accomplishment for His People.
What verse is that quoted from in the OT? "The Just shall live by Faith"

and I believe this:

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
 

cv5

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SO its says believe and believe?

[Rev 12:17 KJV] 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I think you are isolating. If that is the only COmmand then stealing, murder, etc are not sins.

A sin is still a sin.
Mat 22:36-40, “Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

Hebrews 7:23-25, " 23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
I confess my imperfect command keeping. But it is a work in process. It's called "sanctification".

You might want to look into that.
 

cv5

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What verse is that quoted from in the OT? "The Just shall live by Faith"

and I believe this:

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
I would suggest you leave the judgement business to the Judge.
 

rogerg

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When did I bring up Moses?

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
I showed you what His commandments are. The law the OT Jews thought they could satisfy to justify themselves was the law of Moses. The satisfying of the laws/commandments of Christ are not heavy because He did it all for us on our behalf.

[1Jo 3:23 KJV] 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

[Act 13:39 KJV] 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
 

SpeakTruth101

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So keep them.

But beware.......one slip on a sin banana peel and it could be over for you.
look at you trying to be scary...

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

maybe you need to take in the entire word to understand better, every day I study I learn more and more, the Spirit does guide to understanding.
 

brightfame52

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What verse is that quoted from in the OT? "The Just shall live by Faith"

and I believe this:

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
There are several verses that state the Just shall live by Faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Just to let you know, I will have been raptured by then.

And you?
He returns right before the wrath, He is the judge, I dont plan on going before His return but if my days on earth allow me to be here that long it will be after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, (Isa 13:10; Isa 24:23, Eze 32:7-8, Joe 2:10, Joe 2:31, Joe 3:15) and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (Hag 2:6, Hag 2:21, Amo 5:20, Amo 8:9. Isa 34:4) “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, (Zec 12:10-14 and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds (Dan 7:13) of the heaven with power and much esteem. (Dan 7:14) “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, (Isa 27:13) and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, (Dan 7:2) from one end of the heavens to the other. (Deu 4:32.)”

1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”

I know many churches teach differently but it is clearly written last trumpet
 

SpeakTruth101

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I confess my imperfect command keeping. But it is a work in process. It's called "sanctification".

You might want to look into that.
I am not perfect myself but want to do His will, but were you just not talking down to me about it?

So keep them.

But beware.......one slip on a sin banana peel and it could be over for you.
wow


It's called "sanctification". You might want to look into that.
I know about it, why do you think I believe in following Him? and what did I ever say against it? Nothing? oh ok.

I would suggest you leave the judgement business to the Judge.
I believe this as I said thats not judging:

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Are those more empty words? Can you show me where I took eternal judgment out of His hands and made it myself?
 

SpeakTruth101

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I showed you what His commandments are. The law the OT Jews thought they could satisfy to justify themselves was the law of Moses. The satisfying of the laws/commandments of Christ are not heavy because He did it all for us on our behalf.

[1Jo 3:23 KJV] 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

[Act 13:39 KJV] 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Thats His only Command?