Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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SpeakTruth101

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There are several verses that state the Just shall live by Faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
They are quotes from Hab 2:4

Habakkuk 2:4, “Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith (#H530).”

“steadfastness” #H530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f. אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity, [feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529

BDB Definition:
אֱמֻנָה / אֱמוּנָה ’ĕmûnâh 1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness
 

rogerg

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SO its says believe and believe?
I don't understand your point.

I think you are isolating. If that is the only COmmand then stealing, murder, etc are not sins.
The only sin that affects eternal salvation is the sin of being under the law of sin and death - the law of works.

A sin is still a sin.
No. If God places us under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, then by that, all sins have been forgiven though by Christ- by what He alone achieved, not by anything we did, do, or will do - it is all by Christ. Once placed under that law, old sinful desires, by being given a new mind, new soul, etc (and as I think CV5 mentioned earlier), abate over time, but that from being saved, not to become saved.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Do you see below in 1 John 3:23 "And this is his commandment"? It is not to keep the laws of the Torah, but to believe on Christ.

[Rev 12:17 KJV] 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Rev 14:12-13 KJV]
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the commandment of God:

[1Jo 3:23 KJV] 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
it says "keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

ifbelieve is His ONLY Command then the "keep the commandments of God" would be believe according to you?

SO it would mean keep the commandments of BELIEF IN JESUS, and the faith of Jesus."

I beleive these are His Commands

Mat 22:36-40, “Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
 

SpeakTruth101

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The only sin that affects eternal salvation is the sin of being under the law of sin and death - the law of works.
Then explain this to me

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding (G5083) the Commands (G1785) of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”







and I think you need to re read about the law of sin adn death

Romans 8:2, “Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.”

Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?"

Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin* that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

*What is sin, that we may not continue in it and thus have “died to sin”?

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Romans 7:25, “I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.
 

SpeakTruth101

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No. If God places us under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, then by that, all sins have been forgiven though by Christ- by what He alone achieved, not by anything we did, do, or will do - it is all by Christ. Once placed under that law, old sinful desires, by being given a new mind, new soul, etc (and as I think CV5 mentioned earlier), abate over time, but that from being saved, not to become saved.
Young Literal Translation
Revelation 22:14-15,'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;and without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.
 

rogerg

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Thats His only Command?
Yes, but the satisfying of it can only happen as a result of, or as a byproduct of, becoming saved.
From/by being saved, those saved will exhibit and act upon the attributes and characteristics of a true Christian.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Yes, but the satisfying of it can only happen as a result of, or as a byproduct of, becoming saved.
From/by being saved, those saved will exhibit and act upon the attributes and characteristics of a true Christian.
SO these Commands mare void?

Mat 22:36-40, “Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
 

rogerg

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SO these Commands mare void?

Mat 22:36-40, “Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
They can only truly occur AS A RESULT OF becoming saved. They cannot bring salvation. To try to use them as a tool to become saved brings God's wrath.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Yes, but the satisfying of it can only happen as a result of, or as a byproduct of, becoming saved.
From/by being saved, those saved will exhibit and act upon the attributes and characteristics of a true Christian.
I beleive this is the best explanation of how it happens: His SPirit

Hebrews 10:16, “This is the covenant that I shall make with them after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them.”

They can only truly occur AS A RESULT OF becoming saved. They cannot bring salvation. To try to use them as a tool to become saved brings God's wrath.
But when one says obedienceis good and the true sign of real faith, the reply should not be "justified by works" The are the reality of a changed man by His SPirit.

James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

Hebrews 10:16, “This is the covenant that I shall make with them after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them.”
 

brightfame52

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They are quotes from Hab 2:4

Habakkuk 2:4, “Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith (#H530).”

“steadfastness” #H530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f. אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity, [feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529

BDB Definition:
אֱמֻנָה / אֱמוּנָה ’ĕmûnâh 1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness
Why are you opposing the truth that the Just shall live by Faith ?
 

SpeakTruth101

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Why are you opposing the truth that the Just shall live by Faith ?
youre funny, is this better?


Habakkuk 2:4, “Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his emuwnah”

“steadfastness” #H530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f. אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity, [feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529

BDB Definition:
אֱמֻנָה / אֱמוּנָה ’ĕmûnâh 1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness

This is the original

Habakkuk 2:4,הִנֵּה עֻפְּלָה H6075 לֹא־יָשְׁרָה H3474 נַפְשֹׁו H5315 בֹּו וְצַדִּיק H6662 בֶּאֱמוְּנָתֹו יִחְיֶה H2421"

This is a translation made many many years later

Habakkuk 2:4,εαν υποστειληται ουκ ευδοκει η ψυχη μου εν αυτω ο δε δικαιος εκ πιστεως μου ζησεται"
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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I beleive this is the best explanation of how it happens: His SPirit

Hebrews 10:16, “This is the covenant that I shall make with them after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them.”
I think that I can agree with that.

But when one says obedienceis good and the true sign of real faith, the reply should not be "justified by works" The are the reality of a changed man by His SPirit.

James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

Hebrews 10:16, “This is the covenant that I shall make with them after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them.”
I believe that those saved - the true Christians - are call unto good works... but... those works coming as a result OF salvation, not
as an attempt to use them to gain salvation - the good works being centered upon the bringing and teaching of the gospel of Christ.

[Eph 2:10 KJV] 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

PennEd

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you are vile for saying that.
Ummm, if that's not personal attacks I don't know what is. Besides. I agreed with YOUR position that YOU can lose YOUR salvation!

if thats not slander I dont know what is.
First off, slander is spoken against somebody. You probably were mistaken (yet again) and meant LIBEL. Which BTW, I've done neither.

Also I never said anyone could lose it I said none have recieved it YET:
Oh. That's right. You believe YOU have to work for it. Er... Endure for it. So much for Jesus's Sacrificial death!
THAT belief is exactly what Hebrews 10:26 is warning about. Not to mention that you don't even think you are born again NOW. THESE, are the vile and repugnant beliefs that trample on the Blood of Christ.


1 John 5:13

New King James Version

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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I think that I can agree with that.



I believe that those saved - the true Christians - are call unto good works... but... those works coming as a result OF salvation, not
as an attempt to use them to gain salvation - the good works being centered upon the bringing and teaching of the gospel of Christ.

[Eph 2:10 KJV] 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I agree with this thought

John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Comforter – the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you."
 

brightfame52

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youre funny, is this better?


Habakkuk 2:4, “Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his emuwnah”

“steadfastness” #H530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f. אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity, [feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529

BDB Definition:
אֱמֻנָה / אֱמוּנָה ’ĕmûnâh 1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness

This is the original

Habakkuk 2:4,הִנֵּה עֻפְּלָה H6075 לֹא־יָשְׁרָה H3474 נַפְשֹׁו H5315 בֹּו וְצַדִּיק H6662 בֶּאֱמוְּנָתֹו יִחְיֶה H2421"

This is a translation made many many years later

Habakkuk 2:4,εαν υποστειληται ουκ ευδοκει η ψυχη μου εν αυτω ο δε δικαιος εκ πιστεως μου ζησεται"
The Just shall live by Faith, that is Faith in Jesus Christ, He is all of our Wisdom, Sanctification, Righteousness, and Redemption 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

See thats what is revealed to Faith from the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein[The Gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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Ummm, if that's not personal attacks I don't know what is. Besides. I agreed with YOUR position that YOU can lose YOUR salvation!
Psalm 109:2, “For wicked and deceitful mouths are opened against me, speaking against me with lying tongues.”

That is not speaking in love, that is speaking evil. In addition I said salvation cant be lost, but people dont have it until He returns, for those who will obtain it, it is as good as done, but just because someone proclaims they have it, does not mean they do, YHWH is the judge.

First off, slander is spoken against somebody. You probably were mistaken (yet again) and meant LIBEL. Which BTW, I've done neither.

Oh. That's right. You believe YOU have to work for it. Er... Endure for it. So much for Jesus's Sacrificial death!
THAT belief is exactly what Hebrews 10:26 is warning about. Not to mention that you don't even think you are born again NOW. THESE, are the vile and repugnant beliefs that trample on the Blood of Christ.

1 John 5:13

New King James Version
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:12-21,He who possesses the Son possesses life, he who does not possess the Son of Elohim does not possess life.I have written this to you who believe in the Name of the Son of Elohim, so that you know that you possess everlasting life, and so that you believe in the Name of the Son of Elohim.And this is the boldness that we have in Him, that if we ask whatever according to His desire, He hears us.And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin, not unto death, he shall ask, and He shall give him life for those not sinning unto death. There is a sin unto death. I do not say that he should pray about that.All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death.We know that everyone having been born of Elohim does not sin,b but the one having been born of Elohim guards himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. .We know that we are of Elohim, and all the world lies in the wicked one.And we know that the Son of Elohim has come and has given us an understanding, so that we might know the true One. And we are in the true One, in His Son יהושע Messiah. This is the true Elohim and everlasting life.Little children, keep yourselves from idols."

I believe His words

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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The Just shall live by Faith, that is Faith in Jesus Christ, He is all of our Wisdom, Sanctification, Righteousness, and Redemption 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

See thats what is revealed to Faith from the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein[The Gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Real faith produces obedience led by His Spirit.

James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Real faith produces obedience led by His Spirit.

James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
Looking to Christ for all salvation is obedience
 

SpeakTruth101

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Looking to Christ for all salvation is obedience
It is right to look to Him for Salvation, however He also says to follow, Him, do His will , and walk in love.

Follow Him
John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."

Do His will
Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”

Walk in love
Mat 22:36-40,
"...You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might...
You shall love your neighbor as yourself ...."

He says those who dont will be judged
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."