Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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FollowingtheWay

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No. No one can believe in their heart until they are saved. Even you said they must be given a new heart. That new heart can
only come from/by salvation.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 3:11-12 KJV] 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Unbelievers have the “law” written into their conscience. This is why most sane people don’t have to be told murder is wrong. The unbelieving instinctively know murder is wrong. And as Jesus came to fulfill the law their hearts are already primered to receive Jesus. They only need satans veil removed
“(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

SpeakTruth101

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Oh my! Do you understand this verse? Faith comes when with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit only comes to those
when only they become born again. If faith comes from Holy Spirit, then that means they were saved before they had faith
You actually need to think about the verses I posted and what they are saying.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
yeah because people grow in faith, all you are doind is twisting what Paul wrote...

Neither say anything about a no faith salvation. You need to slow down and read the entire word, particularly when there are a ton of passages saying faith is required.
 

rogerg

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Unbelievers have the “law” written into their conscience. This is why most sane people don’t have to be told murder is wrong. The unbelieving instinctively know murder is wrong. And as Jesus came to fulfill the law their hearts are already primered to receive Jesus. They only need satans veil removed
“(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NIV‬‬
The verse clearly states that the unsaved CANNOT know the spiritual things of God. Natural man can know earthly things - requirements of law because that was written upon their hearts from Adam and Eve- but the spiritual, no. No one can have true faith in that which they are oblivious to. The law that Christ came to fulfill is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. That is the only law which was needed to bring forth salvation.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
 
F

FollowingtheWay

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The verse clearly states that the unsaved CANNOT know the spiritual things of God. Natural man can know earthly things - requirements of law because that was written upon their hearts from Adam and Eve- but the spiritual, no. No one can have true faith in that which they are oblivious to. The law that Christ came to fulfill is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. That is the only law which was needed to bring forth salvation.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Gods law is the law of the spirit of life when you read psalm 119. They are one in the same and through Christ we are made righteous with Gods Law. Jesus atoned for our sin, past present and future and sin is falling short of Gods law.
 

rogerg

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yeah because people grow in faith, all you are doind is twisting what Paul wrote...

Neither say anything about a no faith salvation. You need to slow down and read the entire word, particularly when there are a ton of passages saying faith is required.
You are the one twisting it. It says it as clearly as it can be said - faith comes with the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit comes with
being born again; being born again comes with salvation. You can't get to 'c' without first going through "a' and 'b'.
You are just unable to comprehend it.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”


Hebrews 11, By belief they performed an action;

11:1, "And belief is the substance of what is expected, the proof of what is not seen.

11:4, "By belief, Heḇel offered to Yah a greater slaughter offering than Qayin, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, Yah witnessing of his gifts. And through it, having died, he still speaks.

11:5, "By belief, Ḥanoḵ was translated so as not to see death, “and was not found because Yah had translated him.” (Gen 5:24) For before his translation he obtained witness, that he pleased Yah.

11:6, "But without belief it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.

11:7, "By belief, Noaḥ, having been warned of what was yet unseen, having feared, prepared an ark to save his house, through which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to belief.

11:8, "By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.11:9, "By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"11:10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.

11:11, "By belief also, Sarah herself was enabled to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the normal age, because she deemed Him trustworthy who had promised.

11:17, "By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son,

11:20, "By belief, Yitsḥaq blessed Ya‛aqoḇ and Ěsaw concerning that which was to come.

11:21, "By belief, Ya‛aqoḇ, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Yosĕph, and did reverence on the top of his staff.

11:22, "By belief, Yosĕph, when he was dying, made mention of the outgoing of the children of Yisra’ĕl, and gave orders concerning his bones.

11:23, "By belief, Mosheh, having been born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a comely child, and were not afraid of the sovereign’s command. (Exo 2:2)

11:24, "By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh,"11:25, "choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time,"11:26, "deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward.

11:27, "By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.

11:28, "By belief, he performed the Pĕsaḥ and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the first-born should touch them.

11:29, "By belief, they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, and when the Mitsrites tried it, they were drowned.

11:30, "By belief, the walls of Yeriḥo fell, having been surrounded for seven days.

11:31, "By belief, Raḥaḇ the whore did not perish with those who did not believe, having received the spies with peace.

11:33, "who through belief, overcame reigns, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,"11:34, "quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight."11:35, "Women received back their dead by resurrection. And others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain a better resurrection."11:36, "And others had trial of mockings and floggings and more, of chains and imprisonment."11:37, "They were stoned, they were tried, they were sawn in two, they were slain with the sword. They went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in need, afflicted, mistreated,”
 

SpeakTruth101

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You are the one twisting it. It says it as clearly as it can be said - faith comes with the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit comes with
being born again; being born again comes with salvation. You can't get to 'c' without first going through "a' and 'b'.
You are just unable to comprehend it.
Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Yah and possessing the witness of יהושעMessiah."
 
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FollowingtheWay

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You are the one twisting it. It says it as clearly as it can be said - faith comes with the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit comes with
being born again; being born again comes with salvation. You can't get to 'c' without first going through "a' and 'b'.
You are just unable to comprehend it.
A+b =c is a concept of our current limited earthly existence. We serve a God who is not limited by what limits us. God operates outside of space and time.
 

rogerg

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Gods law is the law of the spirit of life when you read psalm 119. They are one in the same and through Christ we are made righteous with Gods Law. Jesus atoned for our sin, past present and future and sin is falling short of Gods law.
Well, if we are made righteous "through Christ", then how could anyone who has been made righteous by Christ, fall short of it?
Actually, Christ IS God's law for salvation. Once taken from the law of sin and death, and placed under the law of the
Spirit of life in Christ Jesus by God, for those, there is no longer any law to judge them.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

rogerg

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Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Yah and possessing the witness of יהושעMessiah."
And?
 

SpeakTruth101

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Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
 

rogerg

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Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
So, your point is that you believe we are saved by our works, and therefore that b is your belief? Is that it?
 
F

FollowingtheWay

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Not a+b=c. a leads to b which leads to c
My point is God is not bound by our human limitations or understanding of point A to B to c. If God wills he can take a A and move to z if he wills it. It will defy our human logic. Like how does Jesus feed 5000 plus from 5 loaves and 2 fish?
 

SpeakTruth101

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So, your point is that you believe we are saved by our works, and therefore that b is your belief? Is that it?
So you read Scrupture and think that?

Where did I say that?

Actually you again are being dishonest, as you are putting words in my mouth that I alrady said otherwise and explained what I believe.

You seem to have a problem with anything Paul did not write...

2 Peter 3:15-17, “15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. “
 

rogerg

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My point is God is not bound by our human limitations or understanding of point A to B to c. If God wills he can take a A and move to z if he wills it. It will defy our human logic. Like how does Jesus feed 5000 plus from 5 loaves and 2 fish?
He won't because He is the one who wrote it, and wrote it in the Bible in that sequence. He doesn't have to, nor would He ever change it. If He did, we would all be in a lot of trouble because that would mean the Bible is untrustworthy - which is impossible.
 

rogerg

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So you read Scrupture and think that?

Where did I say that?

Actually you again are being dishonest, as you are putting words in my mouth that I alrady said otherwise and explained what I believe.

You seem to have a problem with anything Paul did not write...

2 Peter 3:15-17, “15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. “
What then did the verse you posted mean? If you would include your reasoning, I wouldn't need to guess at it
 

rogerg

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ou seem to have a problem with anything Paul did not write...
Paul and all of the writers of the Bible say the same thing. They do because it was God who moved them to
write what He wanted them to. So, I have no problem with any of the other writers, nor do I think Paul contradicted them or vice versa.
 

SpeakTruth101

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One thing I have learned here is that if you quote anything Paul did not write that mentions obedience many people will accuse you of "justified by works" type doctrines. It is really crazy. Jude warned of this

Jude 1:4, “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness (#766) and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

Using His mercy for a license to sin