Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Oct 31, 2015
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Judas wasnt saved, he was chosen to fulfill his role as the son of perdition, to betray Christ, he wasnt chosen for salvation. When speaking about Salvation Jesus said this Jn 13:18

I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

“I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.”

John 13:18-21


  • Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.


In order for Judas to betray Jesus he must have been a follower of Christ; walked with Him everyday for three and a half years as a disciple.

In order for Judas to have become a disciple, one of the twelve, he would have to been called by Jesus Christ and therefore chosen to be one of the twelve.


Judas Iscariot being one of the twelve was predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven disciples in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


  • you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Judas like all of us have a choice to follow Jesus Christ and endure to the end or not.



But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13



receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9






JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Judas, the Satan/man (as opposed to the God/Man), is the only person in Scripture in whom the devil indwelt.
Judas is a type of the anti-Christ. Judas WAS chosen, specifically, as the one who would DELIVER (not betray.....God Who exists outside of time and is omniscient cannot be deceived) Jesus to the cross.

All part of Gods plan from eternity past.

Judas was NOT SAVED, and he never was. On the contrary, he is the son of perdition, as are all of the unsaved.

Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


How can someone lose something he never owned in the first place?


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

  • What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them

  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’


By your reasoning the prodigal son was never saved. :unsure:



It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found. Luke 15:32





JPT
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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“I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.”

John 13:18-21


  • Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.


In order for Judas to betray Jesus he must have been a follower of Christ; walked with Him everyday for three and a half years as a disciple.

In order for Judas to have become a disciple, one of the twelve, he would have to been called by Jesus Christ and therefore chosen to be one of the twelve.


Judas Iscariot being one of the twelve was predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven disciples in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


  • you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Judas like all of us have a choice to follow Jesus Christ and endure to the end or not.



But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13



receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9






JPT
[1Jo 2:19 KJV]
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[Jhn 12:37, 39 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

[Jhn 6:64-66 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
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Like the song playing.. I don't think I will ever understand how you love me. You give me breath you give me life and I give you ever reason to leave. You stay here even when I don't believe... even if I fall a thousand times you won't let go. Even if I run and try to hide you hold me close your the lover of my soul

Its when I take my eyes off Him is when doubt comes.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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“I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.”

John 13:18-21


  • Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.


In order for Judas to betray Jesus he must have been a follower of Christ; walked with Him everyday for three and a half years as a disciple.

In order for Judas to have become a disciple, one of the twelve, he would have to been called by Jesus Christ and therefore chosen to be one of the twelve.


Judas Iscariot being one of the twelve was predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven disciples in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


  • you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Judas like all of us have a choice to follow Jesus Christ and endure to the end or not.



But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13



receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9






JPT
The funny thing about "I have not lost one of those You have given Me" is that John says it is fulfilled when they are not killed in the Garden :ROFL:

John 18
8“I told you that I am He,” Jesus replied. “So if you are looking for Me, let these men go.” 9This was to fulfill the word He had spoken: “I have not lost one of those You have given Me.”
 
Sep 23, 2023
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How can someone lose something he never owned in the first place?


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

  • What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them

  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’


By your reasoning the prodigal son was never saved. :unsure:



It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found. Luke 15:32





JPT
Also, why would Judas be the only person indwelt by satan? What about the Gadarene demoniac?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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“I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.”

John 13:18-21


  • Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.


In order for Judas to betray Jesus he must have been a follower of Christ; walked with Him everyday for three and a half years as a disciple.

In order for Judas to have become a disciple, one of the twelve, he would have to been called by Jesus Christ and therefore chosen to be one of the twelve.


Judas Iscariot being one of the twelve was predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven disciples in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


  • you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Judas like all of us have a choice to follow Jesus Christ and endure to the end or not.



But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13



receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9






JPT
Judas wasnt saved.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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In regard to Judas Iscariot being chosen, in John 13:18, we read - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

Jesus chose Judas, but that does not mean Judas was saved and also Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost.

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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How can someone lose something he never owned in the first place?

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7
  • What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self-righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that a believer lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Look at what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
Not lost his salvation and has to get it back again.

By your reasoning the prodigal son was never saved. :unsure:

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found. Luke 15:32

JPT
As for the prodigal son. All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." Those who believe that salvation can be lost will use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that believers can lose their salvation by arguing that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Yet others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually.

I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found. (NASB)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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As for the prodigal son. All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." Those who believe that salvation can be lost will use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that believers can lose their salvation by arguing that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Yet others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually.

I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found. (NASB)
James tells the Jews...

chapter 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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James tells the Jews...

chapter 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
The "brethren": the elect
The "err from the truth": the truth is Christ.
The "and one convert him", the one is Christ.
The "Let him know", let the sinner know.
The " that he which converteth the sinner", the "he", is Christ.

To paraphrase: those elect who do not yet intellectually know the gospel of Christ, but who's soul has been spiritually converted
(became born again), that it was by God's providence and His doing and not by man's; those converted are to be preached the gospel "let him know"), that their soul has been saved and they were converted and taught by the presence of God Himself being within them - that through/by God alone, were they converted, and their sin forgiven them.


[Psa 51:13 KJV]
13 [Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

[Jhn 12:40 KJV] 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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The "brethren": the elect
The "err from the truth": the truth is Christ.
The "and one convert him", the one is Christ.
The "Let him know", let the sinner know.
The " that he which converteth the sinner", the "he", is Christ.

To paraphrase: those elect who do not yet intellectually know the gospel of Christ, but who's soul has been spiritually converted
(became born again), that it was by God's providence and His doing and not by man's; those converted are to be preached the gospel "let him know"), that their soul has been saved and they were converted and taught by the presence of God Himself being within them - that through/by God alone, were they converted, and their sin forgiven them.


[Psa 51:13 KJV]
13 [Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

[Jhn 12:40 KJV] 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Your confusion comes from not rightly dividing Israel and the body of Christ. (In addition to following a RCC priest.)
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Your confusion comes from not rightly dividing Israel and the body of Christ. (In addition to following a RCC priest.)
There is no confusion not my part, but if anyone is, it is you. The brethren are the brethren of the body of Christ - they transcend all earthly groupings of people. The verses that I supplied are clear and speak for themselves in that it is all by Christ. It is interesting though that you deny Christ as Teacher and Saviour.
Your RCC priest comment makes no sense.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[Luk 8:21 KJV] 21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
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This is a second, separate post from previous obrdin this subject.

OSAS should be renamed to correctly reflect what it's intended meaning is by those that use and embrace it. In that regard, the intended meaning is OSFS: Once Saved Forever Saved.

OSAS is correct if considered properly. When you are initially saved, what is it you're saved from? It's your past sins at the point of your salvation that you're saved from. So, you'll always be saved from those based on your salvation at the point in time you're initially saved, but not sins committed subsequent to your initial salvation. Those sins committed afterwards, you're not saved from without repentance and prayer. So, OSAS is really OSFS.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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There is no confusion not my part, but if anyone is, it is you. The brethren are the brethren of the body of Christ - they transcend all earthly groupings of people. The verses that I supplied are clear and speak for themselves in that it is all by Christ. It is interesting though that you deny Christ as Teacher and Saviour.
Your RCC priest comment makes no sense.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[Luk 8:21 KJV] 21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
Galatians is to the body of Christ.

Luke is to the Jews. Jesus was speaking concerning the Jews.

The RCC priest is John Calvin.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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This is a second, separate post from previous obrdin this subject.

OSAS should be renamed to correctly reflect what it's intended meaning is by those that use and embrace it. In that regard, the intended meaning is OSFS: Once Saved Forever Saved.

OSAS is correct if considered properly. When you are initially saved, what is it you're saved from? It's your past sins at the point of your salvation that you're saved from. So, you'll always be saved from those based on your salvation at the point in time you're initially saved, but not sins committed subsequent to your initial salvation. Those sins committed afterwards, you're not saved from without repentance and prayer. So, OSAS is really OSFS.
No, through Christ, we're saved from ALL sins, past, present, future. When Christ saves, by His offering, He made payment on our behalf for past sin. In addition, we are also taken out from being under law relative to salvation, and therefore, not being law, current and future sin cannot be assessed against us, so in toto, there is no judgement that can levied against any who He saves.

[Heb 7:25 KJV]
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

in the below verse, the "give" is in the present tense; that is, His sheep have eternal life.

[Jhn 10:27-29 KJV]
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.


Those who believe, are those ordained to eternal life.
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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No, through Christ, we're saved from ALL sins, past, present, future. When Christ saves, by His offering, He made payment on our behalf for past sin. In addition, we are also taken out from being under law relative to salvation, and therefore, not being law, current and future sin cannot be assessed against us, so in toto, there is no judgement that can levied against any who He saves.
Totally agree with this...