Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
- Thread starter ResidentAlien
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Was that with Paul Giamatti?
I am working on my third panel today .
I am working on my third panel today .
Whoa...3 panels. You are in the turbo spirit.
-
1
- Show all
So you believe we save ourselves?
You believe we can live a life loaded down with sin until we decide we're done and then we can just pull the magic rip cord and be saved? We just wake up one day and decide ourselves that we'll go on to Heaven now - like we've had a long day and we're simply headed to bed?
What Bible do you find that in?
Jesus makes very plain that no man can decide to save themselves unless/until God intervenes.
You believe we can live a life loaded down with sin until we decide we're done and then we can just pull the magic rip cord and be saved? We just wake up one day and decide ourselves that we'll go on to Heaven now - like we've had a long day and we're simply headed to bed?
What Bible do you find that in?
Jesus makes very plain that no man can decide to save themselves unless/until God intervenes.
Okay, now I'm confused. I think the laws spoken of in Romans 8:2, aren't referring to the Mosaic law because we are told that it is just and good: sin is not of that law, nor is that law of sin.
[Rom 7:7 KJV] 7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
[Rom 7:12 KJV] 12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The sin, of the law of sin and death, is by its sin, not by Mosaic law, and that sin being of Satan himself. The life, of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, is of its life, and that being by Christ Himself. So, depending upon which law one is under, they are either the subjects of Satan or subjects of Christ - they can/must be the subjects of one or the other - there is no third alternative. Relative to Romans 8:2, just by being under Satan's law, one sins because sin is that law's stipulation (the law of sin); just by being under Christ's law, one does not sin because life is that law's stipulation (the law of life) and because they are no longer under the law of sin and death - as Paul so informs us that he was so moved to the law of life, by Christ. That the unsaved seek to justify themselves by their works is an outgrowth of the law of sin and death; that the saved rest in the completed works of Christ is an outgrowth of the law of Christ.
In Romans 5:12 I think we see the answer to your question - that sin and death were passed, not reckoned, to mankind because
Adam brought into the world the law of sin and death, which all were placed under, and by which, will the unsaved be found guilty:
men sin because they are under it, but the reverse is not true: that they are under it because they sin.
[Rom 5:12-13 KJV]
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[Rom 7:7 KJV] 7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
[Rom 7:12 KJV] 12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The sin, of the law of sin and death, is by its sin, not by Mosaic law, and that sin being of Satan himself. The life, of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, is of its life, and that being by Christ Himself. So, depending upon which law one is under, they are either the subjects of Satan or subjects of Christ - they can/must be the subjects of one or the other - there is no third alternative. Relative to Romans 8:2, just by being under Satan's law, one sins because sin is that law's stipulation (the law of sin); just by being under Christ's law, one does not sin because life is that law's stipulation (the law of life) and because they are no longer under the law of sin and death - as Paul so informs us that he was so moved to the law of life, by Christ. That the unsaved seek to justify themselves by their works is an outgrowth of the law of sin and death; that the saved rest in the completed works of Christ is an outgrowth of the law of Christ.
In Romans 5:12 I think we see the answer to your question - that sin and death were passed, not reckoned, to mankind because
Adam brought into the world the law of sin and death, which all were placed under, and by which, will the unsaved be found guilty:
men sin because they are under it, but the reverse is not true: that they are under it because they sin.
[Rom 5:12-13 KJV]
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
That's a pretty involved argument and not one I fully have my head around. In part, it's a matter of semantics. Whether imputed, reckoned, or passed is used, sin had to communicated to us in some fashion for us to be under condemnation before actually committing sin. How one describes or labels that wasn't so much my concern.
As far as distinguishing the law of sin and death from the law of Sinia, no problem with there being a distinction. But why can't it be either? For Adam, 1 commandment prove fatal. For Jesus, no amount of commands would have proved fatal. The law isn't the problem. The one trying to keep it is the difference. Thus any law for humans will prove to be a law of sin and death. But any law applied to Jesus brings life.
As far as distinguishing the law of sin and death from the law of Sinia, no problem with there being a distinction. But why can't it be either? For Adam, 1 commandment prove fatal. For Jesus, no amount of commands would have proved fatal. The law isn't the problem. The one trying to keep it is the difference. Thus any law for humans will prove to be a law of sin and death. But any law applied to Jesus brings life.
If one is going to claim we are all born sinners by quoting this:
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Then, going by that logic... we're all saved now because of this:
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
In other words, some claim we are all born sinners by quoting Romans 5:12... but they fail to use their own method of interpretation to claim we're all saved now due to Romans 5:18
Of course we are not born sinners and we are not all saved... we simply have all had the opportunity to sin come upon us as well as the opportunity to be righteous has also come upon us.
Limited atonement is false doctrine according to God's Word... here's why:
Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children
Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)
God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)
God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)
Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)
In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Then, going by that logic... we're all saved now because of this:
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
In other words, some claim we are all born sinners by quoting Romans 5:12... but they fail to use their own method of interpretation to claim we're all saved now due to Romans 5:18
Of course we are not born sinners and we are not all saved... we simply have all had the opportunity to sin come upon us as well as the opportunity to be righteous has also come upon us.
Limited atonement is false doctrine according to God's Word... here's why:
Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children
Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)
God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)
God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)
Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)
In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.
One does not need to make such a claim and use that verse to corroborate, since all are
born a "natural" man and all require a spiritual rebirth in order to be reconciled to God,
attain to life ever after, and escape the second death. Other verses I already gave include:
Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. Colossians 1:21
Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and
indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of
Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
born a "natural" man and all require a spiritual rebirth in order to be reconciled to God,
attain to life ever after, and escape the second death. Other verses I already gave include:
Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. Colossians 1:21
Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and
indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of
Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
I don't think that Romans 8:2 would permit that interpretation to be made, because as written, it, as a law, stands alone, independent, and unrelated to any other law. We also see that Paul had only to be brought under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus one time, not numerous times, which would otherwise have been required were each law its own law of sin and death; that is, each time a law was transgressed, its transgressor would have to be placed anew under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, nor could they ever be made free from the law of sin and death, which those in Christ have been.
[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ahh, okay, sorry, gotcha now. That's a big topic but maybe a good place to start would be at the highest level but there is a lot more to it than that.
As I tried to explain (and probably didn't do too good a job of it), the law of sin and death I believe is itself both a law AND a sin at the same time so nothing can be done by us to not be put under it. I think its name fully describes itself: it is sin, it is death, and it is law - all being within one. It resulted from Adam's eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Everyone is automatically placed under it solely by Adam's transgression, not of themselves.
For those whom God had not chosen to save (the non-elect), they will be judged by the law of Christ relative to the law of sin and death. For those whom God had chosen to save (the elect), they will come under no judgment whatsoever. There are no other laws but these two that affect one's salvation.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, is the exact antithesis to the law of sin and death. Its name too fully describes itself: it is of the Spirit, it is eternal life, and it is in Christ. The law of sin and death manifests itself within us by a desire for, and a trust in, works for salvation, which manifestation is also referred to as the law of works; the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus manifests itself as the law of liberty. It results in faith to trust not in ourselves, but in the finished works of Christ, freeing us from a desire for, and a trust in, our works.
It is respective to the laws one is under, that determines whether or not we escape God's wrath. Notice in Romans 8:2 that it is the law of Christ itself and alone, that takes us from, and keeps us from, the law of sin and death. All of the attributes of a Christian emanate from being under the law of Christ. Only the elect will be placed by God under it. All of the attributes of the unsaved emanate from being under the law of sin and death, and that by Adam.
So, to summarize, both laws alone are sole determinants of whether or not someone faces God's wrath.
Hope this helps. If not, let me know and I'll try to clarify - I am not the best of writers and realize this explanation lacks a lot.
[Rom 5:18-19 KJV]
18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
As I tried to explain (and probably didn't do too good a job of it), the law of sin and death I believe is itself both a law AND a sin at the same time so nothing can be done by us to not be put under it. I think its name fully describes itself: it is sin, it is death, and it is law - all being within one. It resulted from Adam's eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Everyone is automatically placed under it solely by Adam's transgression, not of themselves.
For those whom God had not chosen to save (the non-elect), they will be judged by the law of Christ relative to the law of sin and death. For those whom God had chosen to save (the elect), they will come under no judgment whatsoever. There are no other laws but these two that affect one's salvation.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, is the exact antithesis to the law of sin and death. Its name too fully describes itself: it is of the Spirit, it is eternal life, and it is in Christ. The law of sin and death manifests itself within us by a desire for, and a trust in, works for salvation, which manifestation is also referred to as the law of works; the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus manifests itself as the law of liberty. It results in faith to trust not in ourselves, but in the finished works of Christ, freeing us from a desire for, and a trust in, our works.
It is respective to the laws one is under, that determines whether or not we escape God's wrath. Notice in Romans 8:2 that it is the law of Christ itself and alone, that takes us from, and keeps us from, the law of sin and death. All of the attributes of a Christian emanate from being under the law of Christ. Only the elect will be placed by God under it. All of the attributes of the unsaved emanate from being under the law of sin and death, and that by Adam.
So, to summarize, both laws alone are sole determinants of whether or not someone faces God's wrath.
Hope this helps. If not, let me know and I'll try to clarify - I am not the best of writers and realize this explanation lacks a lot.
[Rom 5:18-19 KJV]
18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
-
2
- Show all
Ok. I'm starting to get the picture. Law doesn't refer to a particular set of laws, but explain a reality. This would work similar to what are commonly called laws of nature and explain spiritual realities instead of explaining natural realities.
So while the law of gravity demonstrates and informs our understanding of phenomena in the physical realm, the law of sin and death informs our understanding of spiritual reality.
Does this capture your understanding?
So while the law of gravity demonstrates and informs our understanding of phenomena in the physical realm, the law of sin and death informs our understanding of spiritual reality.
Does this capture your understanding?