Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Oct 14, 2021
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The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom - "Once saved always saved" enlightened by the Holy Spirit many years ago.

"Once saved always saved" is TRUE in the Divine Power of God from the perspective of God, Only God Knows!. But we cannot know What God knows in HIS Mind about this person is "Once saved always saved". God the Creator of Heavens and Earth have the divine power to do "Once saved always saved". But in our human mind and understanding , we can only conclude "Once saved always saved"is NOT true -Only in our human perspective based on what we see and understand.

But for the Divine Power of God the Creator of Heavens and Earth, "Once saved always saved" is TRUE. Two perspectives, one from the divine Power of God and one from our human understanding, both are Correct!

We are confused because we mixed/combined Two Perspectives together to understand and explain.

Blessed be to our Creator of Heavens and Earth, our Savior.
 
Oct 14, 2021
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Refine and rephrase:-

The key is to separate the 2 different perspectives: God’s Perspective (in the Mind of God) and Man’s Perspective (in the mind of Man).

1st perspective from the omnipotent Power of God, the Creator of Heavens and Earth (in the Mind of God) - The Doctrine of Unconditional Election is TRUE in the omnipotent power of God, the Creator of Heavens and Earth. Only the Sovereign God have the omnipotent power to unconditional elected a person without the help of human-it is a gift of God so that no one can boast! (God does not consult us in the affairs of Unconditional Election, God is Sovereign - Let God be God)

2nd perspective from the understanding of man on God’s omnipotence (in the mind of Man) - Since God does not tell us whether the person is unconditional elected by HIM and we cannot know What God Knows in HIS Mind about this person is unconditional elected. Therefore in our human mind, we can only conclude "Doctrine of Unconditional Election" is Not True which is the Correct perspective in our human understanding.

But from the omnipotent power of God (in the Mind of God), "Doctrine of Unconditional Election" is TRUE. Two different perspectives, one from the omnipotent power of God (in the Mind of God) and one from our human understanding (in the mind of Man) on God’s omnipotence, Both are Correct!

When we mixed and combined Two different perspectives together to understand and explain, and it will result in confusion and argument.
 
May 22, 2020
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You're right....because your point was that we ought to pray that the Holy Spirit will never leave us.

And the verses that I referenced show that the Holy Spirit will never leave us nor forsake us, in answer to such a prayer.
You disagree with scriptures. The Bible says...pray that the HS never leaves you....indicates that under certain condition He will.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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You disagree with scriptures. The Bible says...pray that the HS never leaves you....indicates that under certain condition He will.
That is in the Old Testament.

Under the New Covenant, this is the reality:

2Co 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Heb 13:5, Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Eph 1:13, In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 
May 22, 2020
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That is in the Old Testament.

Under the New Covenant, this is the reality:

2Co 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Heb 13:5, Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Eph 1:13, In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Yes...providing that status is maintained...until the end. The above does not disprove that the HS may leave a person when righteousness is abandoned.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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Yes...providing that status is maintained...until the end. The above does not disprove that the HS may leave a person when righteousness is abandoned.
If someone is truly sealed by the Holy Spirit, they will not abandon righteousness.

So, I am partially in agreement with you.

If someone abandons righteousness, they cannot say that they have the Holy Spirit; whether they had Him before and lost Him or whether they never had Him.

And that particular argument is moot impaho.

Because what matters is continuing in the faith; not the argument of whether the person who falls away had the Holy Spirit and was saved or not. That is not important.

What is important is that we exhort one another to continue in the faith.

Because one thing is clear on both sides of the argument...the person who doesn't continue in the faith is not at that point saved.
 
May 22, 2020
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If someone is truly sealed by the Holy Spirit, they will not abandon righteousness.

So, I am partially in agreement with you.

If someone abandons righteousness, they cannot say that they have the Holy Spirit; whether they had Him before and lost Him or whether they never had Him.

And that particular argument is moot impaho.

Because what matters is continuing in the faith; not the argument of whether the person who falls away had the Holy Spirit and was saved or not. That is not important.

What is important is that we exhort one another to continue in the faith.

Because one thing is clear on both sides of the argument...the person who doesn't continue in the faith is not at that point saved.

We must not forget ...free will.
Yes commitment to Christ is meant to be forever...but, satan is powerful and one can be swayed away. We see it many times all around us. The reason saying that one is saved is folly ...until God judges and declares such for a soul. We are born again until that happens.
 

arpon

Junior Member
Feb 24, 2017
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Gods salvation is a free gift(Jesus himself), it is not a reward. God is not taking back his gift from us. So we can not loss our salvation. That's clear. But we can throw our gift, because God gives us freedom to do that. If we throw away our gift(Jesus), we are not losing it due to God but we are losing it due to ourselves. Its clear as pure water.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Gods salvation is a free gift(Jesus himself), it is not a reward. God is not taking back his gift from us. So we can not loss our salvation. That's clear. But we can throw our gift, because God gives us freedom to do that. If we throw away our gift(Jesus), we are not losing it due to God but we are losing it due to ourselves. Its clear as pure water.
John says we never had it. Because they f we did have it we never would have walked away
Saying we can throw it away makes it conditional
 

arpon

Junior Member
Feb 24, 2017
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John says we never had it. Because they f we did have it we never would have walked away
Saying we can throw it away makes it conditional
:), would you mind telling me where it said we never had it and its context. I want to know. I will be grateful. I might have some question later again. + Gods love is unconditional that I agree, It is free. But I think we can reject the unconditional.free gift. or else we have no freedom.
 

arpon

Junior Member
Feb 24, 2017
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:), would you mind telling me where it said we never had it and its context. I want to know. I will be grateful. I might have some question later again. + Gods love is unconditional that I agree, It is free. But I think we can reject the unconditional free gift or else we have no freedom. We are continuing our faith or we are in Christ means we are not abandoning him. It never says we can not.
 

Ogom

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Aug 22, 2020
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.... makes it conditional

because we now, " see through a glass darkly... ", many terms in the Bible are not fully understood yet (because we are not the Authors of the Bible / do not know the actual meaning of the Author's mind when writing / do not see as God sees yet --- but in Part / have been taught Doctrines of Men -- men who also "see in Part"). we must press on to know the Lord -- in order to truly learn. line upon line, here a little there a little. as He allows us to see. "... but grow in grace and knowledge of the".
 

Ogom

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Aug 22, 2020
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Thanks for posting. What message are you conveying by this scripture? What do you mean?

there are the more alive spiritualy and the less. and many mixtures thereof. if we look to God and learn of Him and also learn how ourselves truly are for real (with awareness applied to ourselves and with the Spirit's help daily and/or ongoing) we can begin to discern moreso where we truly are at -- not just take everything at face value or on faith.
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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there are the more alive spiritualy and the less. and many mixtures thereof. if we look to God and learn of Him and also learn how ourselves truly are for real (with awareness applied to ourselves and with the Spirit's help daily and/or ongoing) we can begin to discern moreso where we truly are at -- not just take everything at face value or on faith.
Yep, sure can.
 

Gardenias

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Oct 27, 2020
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If you have come to know God through Jesus Christ,his son,who redeemed you from the penalty of sin then I'm going to say if you believe OSAS we have no major issue. We all are in God's hand and Christ's judgment.

I do pray we all lean NOT on our own understanding but judge spiritual with spiritual. Try the spirit of man made doctrines against the Lord's doctrines by the Holy Spirit!
 

Laura798

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Jun 6, 2020
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There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.
Hi Resident Alien,

I'm late to the thread, but in case anyone happens to read it again, I'd like to add some other verses. The other thing to look for are the 'IF' verses. I believe that we are safe and secure in Christ as we remain in Him. If I keep my warm coat, gloves, and hat, and boots on in the winter I am safe from the cold. An anology I heard once of a farmer who on a cold winter day went to his barn, hearing a hen squawking madly--a ways a way from her were three frozen chicks, but under her wing were three live ones. As they remained under the mother hens wing, they were saved. And all they need do is remain.

There is also of course complete rejection of Christ after having once believed. Judas as a primary example--people will say he was never saved, but Christ chose Him--even though Christ knew the outcome. It's a bit complicated to explain this--as he is eternal, but what happened happened in TIME. When he chose Judas in time Judas believed. He was one of the 12 and He then turned away, as the scriptures says,

"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."--John 17:12

You cannot be lost if you had not first been found.

People mistakenly think that if you don't believe in OSAS, that you believe that you can lose your salvation by sinning, but that's not the case. It is to turn away and live in DELIBERATE and WILLFUL sin as it says in Hebrews 10:26:

" If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,"

Also Paul said, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."--1st Corinthians 9:27

Christ said in John 15:6, "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." ( figurative for judgment and destruction)

So often churches espousing this doctrine have pastors and elders, congregants, who look at pornography--even at church! These pastors commit suicide and I've even heard pastors 'comfort' people in saying a person who commits suicide is still saved--it may comfort the family, but what about a suicidal person who might be listening? There was a well-known apologist who WILLFULLY lived a life of sin--perhaps he confessed when he became ill and eventually died. I don't know. But I find those who espouse to this often live like the world because they feel they have it in the bag. I feel perfectly secure in my salvation, but just as the Lord's prayers says, I ask to be kept from temptation, I confess my sins and pray I will live a life of obedience to Him. PS All churches I have attended believed in OSAS--I came to my belief by my own study of the word--and I did't feel I was having to dig--it was right there in black and white.

( look online at how many pastors commit sexual sins or commit suicide--I'd venture to guess most are in OSAS churches)

excuse not editing
 

Gardenias

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2020
2,281
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Hi Resident Alien,

I'm late to the thread, but in case anyone happens to read it again, I'd like to add some other verses. The other thing to look for are the 'IF' verses. I believe that we are safe and secure in Christ as we remain in Him. If I keep my warm coat, gloves, and hat, and boots on in the winter I am safe from the cold. An anology I heard once of a farmer who on a cold winter day went to his barn, hearing a hen squawking madly--a ways a way from her were three frozen chicks, but under her wing were three live ones. As they remained under the mother hens wing, they were saved. And all they need do is remain.

There is also of course complete rejection of Christ after having once believed. Judas as a primary example--people will say he was never saved, but Christ chose Him--even though Christ knew the outcome. It's a bit complicated to explain this--as he is eternal, but what happened happened in TIME. When he chose Judas in time Judas believed. He was one of the 12 and He then turned away, as the scriptures says,

"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."--John 17:12

You cannot be lost if you had not first been found.

People mistakenly think that if you don't believe in OSAS, that you believe that you can lose your salvation by sinning, but that's not the case. It is to turn away and live in DELIBERATE and WILLFUL sin as it says in Hebrews 10:26:

" If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,"

Also Paul said, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."--1st Corinthians 9:27

Christ said in John 15:6, "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." ( figurative for judgment and destruction)

So often churches espousing this doctrine have pastors and elders, congregants, who look at pornography--even at church! These pastors commit suicide and I've even heard pastors 'comfort' people in saying a person who commits suicide is still saved--it may comfort the family, but what about a suicidal person who might be listening? There was a well-known apologist who WILLFULLY lived a life of sin--perhaps he confessed when he became ill and eventually died. I don't know. But I find those who espouse to this often live like the world because they feel they have it in the bag. I feel perfectly secure in my salvation, but just as the Lord's prayers says, I ask to be kept from temptation, I confess my sins and pray I will live a life of obedience to Him. PS All churches I have attended believed in OSAS--I came to my belief by my own study of the word--and I did't feel I was having to dig--it was right there in black and white.

( look online at how many pastors commit sexual sins or commit suicide--I'd venture to guess most are in OSAS churches)

excuse not editing



Very wise post!
Thank you!