Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Jan 31, 2021
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The only condition is grace through faith

A licentious person has belief, but has no faith it is dead which is why they have no works.

A legalist may have belief but they have no faith its why they add works to the gospel.
Sounds like YOU are adding to the gospel, or maybe just confused.

To have belief means to have faith. Faith, as a noun, is WHAT is being believed.

They go together. Can't be separated.
 
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Yes....ours. Not God's. We trust in HIS faithfulness. Not ours.
By the words "we trust", really means "we BELIEVE".

And it's not Jesus' faithfulness we need to believe for salvation. We need to believe that by His death and resurrection He is able and will save those who are trusting in His work on the cross.

We trust that HE is doing all, paid all, planned all and will complete all.
That's belief. :eek:
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Then that’s universalism or unconditional election based on God’s sovereignty.
Nope it is not. because not everyone will recieve the gift. Stop trying to argue against calvinism, and look to the word for what it says.. I hate calvinism as much as you do. but I am not going to try to defeat it at all costs. which would get me to overlook some things which would lead me astray.
It can be proved God wants no single person to perish. That puts OSAS in a pickle because it makes God not omnipotent, contradicts Scripture, or both.
Actually this is in error. God is omnipotent. He is also omniscient. God does want no one to perish. but he will not force his salvation on anyone. At the same time, In his omniscience he will not give salvation to people he knows will one day give him the finger and tell him where to shove his salvation. NOSAS is the group who is not taking God for who he is. Not osas.. again, Your argument is against calvinism. so you are not seeing what is there you need to back of the calvinist angle and look at the word for what it says
The Bible says grace is accessed through our faith and because of that we have the gift of eternal life. That’s a conditional gift. We aren’t in a position to tell God there can’t be conditions as sinners. God’s grace and mercy and our repentance are required.
It is the work of God that we believe. We can not take credit for saving ourselves because we trust completely in someone else to save us. Thats why salvation is a gift. A gift is given to a person. it does not mean they have to recieve it. It is still theres even if they reject it. But by rejecting it they will never reap the benefits of that gift..

As Jesus himself said, he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

once again, Judas did not lose salvation, he never had it, He was condemned already, because he rejected the gift.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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there are many so called salvation's. but there is only one that matters.
Does the verse that says he who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13) refer to the salvation that matters or to one of the many other salvation's?
 
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If faith is something we produce then it's something we can stop producing. If that's true, and faith is required to access God's grace, then OSAS can't be true.
Where does the Bible support this opinion? It doesn't.

Jesus was very clear in John 5:24 about those who believe possess (have) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said recipients of eternal life (which is when they believe) shall never perish.

So your conclusion isn't biblically based.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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This is a very good point, but this entire debate is a waste of time unless the OSAS crowd can give us a definition of salvation that they all agree on.
done and done.

Thats not the issue. The issue is the NOSAS crowd thinks people are saved when they are not. because they do not understand what true biblical salvation means
 

Everlasting-Grace

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I don't want to misunderstand. When you say "there are many so called salvation's but only one that matters" are you referring to the use of the term salvation in the NT?

The way I understand what you said is this:

salvation from sin is what matters, all other uses of the term salvation in the NT don't matter in this discussion.
Salvation from the penalty of sin is what enables someone to spend an eternity from christ,


I can be saved from paerticular sins, and healed from them. What good is that salvation if I am still dead in my sins and lost headed to hell.

I can be saved from a sickness, and live longer, But what good is it if I am still dead in my sin and headed to hell


Not sure why you are making it so difficult.
 

ZNP

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done and done.

Thats not the issue. The issue is the NOSAS crowd thinks people are saved when they are not. because they do not understand what true biblical salvation means
If it is done and done, then you are completely wrong. This thread is defined in the first post. In that post Runningman used Matthew 24:13 as one example of salvation. So obviously the definition we are using in this thread is all inclusive of all terms in the Bible, not just your incredibly narrow definition and your arrogance to imply that all other uses of salvation in the Bible don't matter.
 
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I just don't see where OSAS in the Bible and I have a pretty open mind about it.
Do you really have an open mind about it? Let's test your claim then.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Do you believe that whoever believes POSSESSES eternal life?

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Do you believe that those given eternal life shall never perish?

Only if you answer yes to both questions do you have an open mind. And you will have repented of your opinion that OSAS can't be true.

The evidence is pretty stacked against OSAS being accurate especially when the words "let" and "if" are used to make 1 John 2:24,25 conditional.
Check the context.

This isn't even just 1 John. From Genesis to Revelation there's evidence against OSAS, but nothing I see supports eternal life being given to those who lose their faith.
So, Mr open mind, do you then believe that Jesus was somehow misguided, confused, or was He just pulling our legs?
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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Salvation from the penalty of sin is what enables someone to spend an eternity from christ,


I can be saved from paerticular sins, and healed from them. What good is that salvation if I am still dead in my sins and lost headed to hell.

I can be saved from a sickness, and live longer, But what good is it if I am still dead in my sin and headed to hell


Not sure why you are making it so difficult.
Because this thread was not defined by you, how arrogant to think it is. The thread and the discussion is defined in the first post. Read it.

The idea that you would say many uses of the word "salvation" by the apostles don't matter is so repulsive I can say no more. I would never discuss the Bible with someone who takes that attitude.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Sounds like YOU are adding to the gospel, or maybe just confused.

To have belief means to have faith. Faith, as a noun, is WHAT is being believed.

They go together. Can't be separated.
Not confused at all

Many people beieve. yet have no faith.

I can believe Jesus was a person, I can believe he died on the cross. I can even believe he rose from the dead. It does not mean I trust that that is the means of my salvation,

Even demons believe yet tremble.. Demons never trusted in God, if they did they would still be angels not demons
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
I think the AND should be emphasized here, as in, "you will find Me if(when) you seek Me with all your heart."
So, salvation to me is finding (that) He rewards those who earnestly seek Him (He is faithful to keep His word as promised)
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Does the verse that says he who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13) refer to the salvation that matters or to one of the many other salvation's?
the salvation in Matt 24 refers to physical salvation ot spiritual salvation. It is spoken to those who are alive during the tribulation period. it is a message of hope. Endure until Christ comes, and you will be saved

this is where you get away from true spiritual salvation and what it means.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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This thread has been derailed by the likes of Everlasting-Grace and others for their own little agenda rather than focusing on the first post which defines the topic. Their arrogance is repulsive.
 

ZNP

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the salvation in Matt 24 refers to physical salvation ot spiritual salvation. It is spoken to those who are alive during the tribulation period. it is a message of hope. Endure until Christ comes, and you will be saved

this is where you get away from true spiritual salvation and what it means.
He quoted it in the first post. Therefore that is what the discussion is about. You don't get to say that this doesn't matter. You can agree, disagree with the premise, but if you want a different thread go and start it.

The fact that he includes a verse about enduring to the end of tribulations as part of his definition of salvation is proof that he is using an all inclusive definition.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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If it is done and done, then you are completely wrong. This thread is defined in the first post. In that post Runningman used Matthew 24:13 as one example of salvation. So obviously the definition we are using in this thread is all inclusive of all terms in the Bible, not just your incredibly narrow definition and your arrogance to imply that all other uses of salvation in the Bible don't matter.
lol

You asked me what salvation was according to OSAS and I gave you the answer

you did not ask not what this thread was about, nor did I answer you anything about what this thread was about

way to jump off the topic completely..
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Because this thread was not defined by you, how arrogant to think it is. The thread and the discussion is defined in the first post. Read it.

The idea that you would say many uses of the word "salvation" by the apostles don't matter is so repulsive I can say no more. I would never discuss the Bible with someone who takes that attitude.
who is the arrogant one here my friend. You asked me what salvation means according to OSAS and I answered YOUR questrion.

Funny how you can not even respond to the words I wrote or even counter them, you have to attack and try to make it appear as I did not do something

Two of you said you are waiting for someont to answer to you what salvation was. Well I shared it with you.

funny how when you get a real answer. you deflect and try to attack the one who did the very thing you asked
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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lol

You asked me what salvation was according to OSAS and I gave you the answer

you did not ask not what this thread was about, nor did I answer you anything about what this thread was about

way to jump off the topic completely..
I am trying very, very hard to not be insulting. You have been insulting others and inferring things about what we are saying because you are using a definition of salvation that we are not using. This is not our fault, we used the first post to determine the definition of salvation. You bear all the shame and guilt for every insult and every false accusation you have made because of this error.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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who is the arrogant one here my friend. You asked me what salvation means according to OSAS and I answered YOUR questrion.

Funny how you can not even respond to the words I wrote or even counter them, you have to attack and try to make it appear as I did not do something

Two of you said you are waiting for someont to answer to you what salvation was. Well I shared it with you.

funny how when you get a real answer. you deflect and try to attack the one who did the very thing you asked
I asked because it became very clear to me you were not using the definition that the first post was. In your response you made it clear that you considered one of the verses he quoted as "not mattering".

Why would I respond? If you want a discussion on that start a thread.