Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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OK then. Go ahead and attest. Prove my statement is wrong or untrue by providing any verse that says differently.
And I'm talking about clearly stated verses where there can be no doubt about it.
LOL, right. Every conceivable scripture has already been posted in this, and another recent thread, and you ask me to post them again? Jesus Himself could show up and tell you you're wrong and you'd tell Him to show you the scriptures.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I think it is quite clear that this debate is not about this doctrine or about two verses in the book of John.

Everyone on both sides has already agreed that you cannot tell if someone is saved simply because they say they are. The OSAS crowd says that once you are saved you are always saved unless of course in the future you live in sin in which case you never were saved.
To be clear, those you are describing are Calvinists. Non calvinists would NEVER claim such nonsense. The truth is that a believer can cease to believe, just as Jesus noted in the second soil, per Luke 8:13. But John 5:24 with 10:28 very clearly prove that believers have eternal life, and recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So, even when a believer ceases to believe, since had been given eternal life, Jesus' promise about never perishing still holds.

So then what is the point of fighting tooth and nail for this doctrine?
Fighting for the Truth. As Jesus taught.

Satan slanders the brethren, that should be a big tip off to anyone.
He also deceives believers.

The bottom line for me is that we all hope OSAS is true, but while on earth I will continue to "work out my salvation with fear and trembling" as Paul said.
So you don't believe what Jesus said about believing having eternal life and those having eternal life shall never perish? Why not?
 
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LOL, right. Every conceivable scripture has already been posted in this, and another recent thread, and you ask me to post them again? Jesus Himself could show up and tell you you're wrong and you'd tell Him to show you the scriptures.
This is hilarious! You think Jesus would tell me that I'm wrong for quoting what He said.

Do you even know what you are saying here? Get a grip.

The problem is that people who don't understand what grace is have attributed their anti-grace attitude toward sin to what God thinks.

iow, since someone else's sins are so offensive, they just can't be allowed into heaven, and God must be just as offended and will not let them in.

Fact: Jesus Christ died for all sins of all people. That means they have been judged and paid for. So no one goes to the LOF on the basis of sins. Those who will be cast into the LOF never received eternal life. Rev 20:15

We are saved by grace.
We are kept by that very same grace.

There is no sin that breaks God's grace. But Arminians think there are.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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Fighting for the Truth. As Jesus taught.
OK, so the point of this thread is to "fight for the truth". Let's consider that.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It has been well known that many of these denominational churches are drying up and are dead just like Sardis. The kids grow up in these denominations and as soon as they are old enough they are gone because they know the church is dead. Soon all you see is a bunch of old people and just about no one else in the congregation.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

OK, so you have faith, you believe that once saved always saved is the true doctrine of the Bible. Go ahead, show me a church full of saved people who have no works and I'll show you a dead church. Meanwhile if you are saved then show me by your works. Let me see that you are an expression of Christ.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This is why the satanists think atheists are fools. The satanists believe in God, they also are waiting for the rapture because that is when the restrainer that is restraining them will step aside and let them loose.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If you are fighting for the truth no one is going to believe you are saved if they don't also see the works. You will be preaching a dead Christianity where nothing else matters but what happened fifty years ago.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Continued:

"
1 Corinthians 10
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!



Galatians. 5:16-21.

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature [literally, "flesh"]. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this [KJV, "do such things"] will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If a Christian cannot lose his salvation no matter what, Paul should have said, "You people don't need to worry if you are sexual immoral, impure, hate, jealous and so on. You will sin in thought, word, and deed every day. It is okay. Just ask for forgiveness every night. You don't ever have to worry about being holy."

Paul is telling this born again Galatians that they must do these things because if these Christians do these things, they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God go to hell not heaven. If a Christian could not lose his salvation ever then Paul is wasting his time telling these Christians that they must not commit these sins."
And who is it that takes Biblical warnings seriously? And orders their lives accordingly? Believers? Or unbelievers?

Lot's wife did not. Most of the Canaanites (other than Rahab and her house) did not, knowing full well who and what was coming upon them. Most of the Pharisees did not.

But some do. Some always do. Today these are the ones who are conscious of having the Blood on their doorposts and lintel.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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G.K. Chesterton noted that only a man who had "escaped" Calvinism could say that God is easy to please and hard to satisfy.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Fighting for the Truth. As Jesus taught.
OK, so the point of this thread is to "fight for the truth". Let's consider that.
Let's really consider that a number of posters are flat-out rejecting the truth that Jesus taught regarding eternal security.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
What does this verse have to do with loss of salvation? Nothing at all. James' point is summarized in the next verse:

v.18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Notice where the quote marks are, which is what all the translations that include quote marks do.

Now read the verse with the correct quote mark ending:

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

Do you see the difference? In the first quote, the sentences make no sense if all the "someone" says is "you have faith and I have deeds". Sort of a SO WHAT? kind of statement.

But the corrected quote makes sense. The "someone" is making the point that in order to demonstrate your faith, you must have works.

It has been well known that many of these denominational churches are drying up and are dead just like Sardis.
True, and irrelevant to this discussion.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

OK, so you have faith, you believe that once saved always saved is the true doctrine of the Bible. Go ahead, show me a church full of saved people who have no works and I'll show you a dead church. Meanwhile if you are saved then show me by your works. Let me see that you are an expression of Christ.
I notice that your quote leaves out quote marks altogether, which is better than all the translations that put them in incorrectly.

At least in quoting without any quote marks it reads like the "someone" or "man" says both sentences, which is the only way for the verse to make sense. His point is clear. To "show your faith" you must have deeds.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This is why the satanists think atheists are fools. The satanists believe in God, they also are waiting for the rapture because that is when the restrainer that is restraining them will step aside and let them loose.
What are you talking about? What "satanists" believe in God? That's absurd. They worship satan. And they aren't "waiting for the rapture" since they don't believe anything the Bible says.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If you are fighting for the truth no one is going to believe you are saved if they don't also see the works.
Right!! Go back to v.18 which is making that exact point!

You will be preaching a dead Christianity where nothing else matters but what happened fifty years ago.
I see no point here.
 

ZNP

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I see no point here.
The point is that James is showing you how to fight for the truth.

Dead Christianity is doctrine without any living expression. That does not show anyone your faith.
 

ZNP

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Peter puts this altogether in the most concise way possible.

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Yes, we are elect according to God's foreknowledge. God has set up everything in such a way that it has led to our salvation. However, it is "through" sanctification. The word you heard, the fellowship you had, the worship, the time in the word, all these things are sanctifying you and your election is through sanctification. God chooses us through our sanctification of the Spirit. This sanctification results in obedience. If we do not see obedience then there is a problem. If we do not see sanctification we have a really big problem. It also results in the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. The priests would sprinkle the blood. We are sanctified, transformed into a priesthood which is sprinkling little drops of salvation wherever we go.

The only thing in this process that is once for all is what God did.

Sanctification of the Spirit is a lifetime of spending time immersed in the Spirit. If you are not obeying the speaking of the Lord you are lacking in sanctification, spend more time in prayer, in the word, in fellowship.

But if everything is working properly you will express a priest of God sprinkling drops of salvation wherever you go.
 

ZNP

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Jude writes about our common salvation and specifically about contending for the faith.

What is the first thing he tells us? People have crept into the church and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness.

If you are really contending for the faith you would expose this. How do you turn the grace of God into lasciviousness? Paul already told us, they tell you that we have been saved by faith, it is the free gift of grace, and so we can sin all we want so that grace can abound.

These guys then deny the Lord. We see this in the apostasy. The Lord is the incarnated word of God, so they deny the word of God. It is easy to see this because the Lord has given us a very clear signpost to recognize 95% of all apostasy churches. The pastor is a member of the LGBTQ+ community. That is a crystal clear denial of the word of God. Now a denomination could have a hundred congregations and in five of them you have a pastor who is the husband of one wife. The point is they teach as a doctrine that you can ignore God's word.

What is it that Jude reminds us of first? He reminds us that those who were saved and delivered from Egypt were later destroyed because they believed not. The examples that were given to us were not "once saved always saved". Yes they were saved from Egypt, yes they crossed the red sea and saw Pharaoh's army drowned, but later they were destroyed. This is Jude, telling us about our common salvation and telling us how to contend for the faith.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
I see no point here.
The point is that James is showing you how to fight for the truth.
You have quoted several veses from ch 2, but I suspect that you haven't read any of it.

James didn't menion fighting or truth. He did speak the truth about how to demonstrate your faith. Actually he worded it this way: "show your faith by your deeds", but means the same thing.

That is his point.

Dead Christianity is doctrine without any living expression. That does not show anyone your faith.
Exactly. James isn't saying that no deeds means no faith at all.
 
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Peter puts this altogether in the most concise way possible.

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Yes, we are elect according to God's foreknowledge.
Do you know WHAT we (believers) are elected FOR? Hint: it is in the verse.

God has set up everything in such a way that it has led to our salvation.
Actually, He set up everything so that anyone can be saved. Titus 2:11 is real clear.

However, it is "through" sanctification.
No, it is "though faith". Eph 2:8 says so plainly. What verse says we are saved through sanctification?

How many different sanctifications are you aware of in the Bible?

The word you heard, the fellowship you had, the worship, the time in the word, all these things are sanctifying you and your election is through sanctification.
Do you have any verses that say this? I study the way the Bereans studied those who taught.

Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what ZNP said was true.

So please show me. I can't find any verse that says what you say.

God chooses us through our sanctification of the Spirit.
Uh, that's not what 2 Thess 2:13 says.

This sanctification results in obedience.
Verse, please, before I will believe your claim.

If we do not see obedience then there is a problem.
True, but do you understand what Paul taught in Gal 5:16-21?

If we do not see sanctification we have a really big problem.
How do you "see" sanctification? Are you referring to deeds?

It also results in the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.
Nothing "results in the sprinkling of Jesus' blood. That occurred about 2,000 years ago. You're late. Real late.

The priests would sprinkle the blood. We are sanctified, transformed into a priesthood which is sprinkling little drops of salvation wherever we go.
What? Where do you get this little nugget?

Sanctification of the Spirit is a lifetime of spending time immersed in the Spirit.
Again, do you have a verse that says this?

If you are not obeying the speaking of the Lord you are lacking in sanctification, spend more time in prayer, in the word, in fellowship.
Do you know how to be in fellowship with the Lord? There IS a verse for that.

But if everything is working properly you will express a priest of God sprinkling drops of salvation wherever you go.
Again, where did you get this notion of sprinkling drops of salvation wherever you go??
 
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What is it that Jude reminds us of first? He reminds us that those who were saved and delivered from Egypt were later destroyed because they believed not.
So you think that Jude and Paul were at odds in what they taught? This is what Paul said about that generation:

1 Cor 10:1-5
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Do you understand the baptism in v.2? And did any Jew get wet while "in the sea"?

Do you understand what Paul was saying in v.3 and 4?

As to your comment about them being "destroyed", that is shown in the red words of v.5. However, that doesn't refer to hell. It refers to their physical death due to their lack of lifestyle faith of trusting in God for all of their needs. All they did was complain about what they didn't have. Cry babies all the way. So God took them home.

Divine discipline includes physical death. 1 Cor 11:30, 5:5

The examples that were given to us were not "once saved always saved".
Paul NEVER taught that salvation could be lost, or he would NEVER have written Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

Yes they were saved from Egypt, yes they crossed the red sea and saw Pharaoh's army drowned, but later they were destroyed.
Question: were Pharoah's army baptized in the sea?

This is Jude, telling us about our common salvation and telling us how to contend for the faith.
He wasn't warning them of any possibility of losing their salvation. He was telling them to defend the faith.
 
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The elect are those who believe. Not those who are selected, those selected are those who believe. The best we can hope for is to get the scripture right as to it's correct interpretation. "Demas has forsaken me having loved this present world". Demas was an apostle, apparantly he fell away, like a branch that did not abide in the Vine but withered and we know what happens to those branches. I am not dogmatic about once saved always saved . I think the bigger issue is are you in an obedient relationship or are you willy nilly and can't discern Christs will from your own ? There is also a difference between" God working in you to will and to do" and self-effort in the arm of the flesh. Why would the Apostle Paul say , "Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling" but also labor to enter into the rest ? I am saved by grace through faith in His Blood. But I am in covenant. Highlight the Ifs , If you Obey, If you continue, If you abide . Does this mean I am saved by works no.. I am a new creation, God works in me to will and to do. I pray because God draws me otherwise I cannot . I am thankful for that . I am kept by the power of God unto salvation. He is committed to me Abiding , he does His part. We are called into discipleship , I think I'll have more to say about that in awhile. Simple is better. In general the posts are too long , this one as well . We like to talk about our Savior but writing a book is naive if we intend to be heard.
 

ZNP

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Yes, we have a covenant. A covenant is a legal contract, there are promises, but there are also obligations on both sides. When I was a teacher I would start the year with a contract. I told my kids if they followed my lead and did what I said that not only would they pass the class but they would pass the state exam at the end of the year. There were at least six other teachers in the same building teaching the same subject and they had about half their kids pass the exam. So this was a very bold promise. I remember one kid came to see me after the state exam to see what he had got. He was one of those kids that had kept his side of the bargain. I looked at my sheet and grimaced and said 'I was sorry he had missed it by one point. You got an 89, one more point and you would have had a 90'. He was in shock, when I said he had missed it by one point he thought he had failed the exam. These were kids who were used to failure, expected to fail, so even after a year they still had a hard time believing they were capable of being honors students. But they have to obey. You have to show up to class and do the assignments.

We have a lot of promises in the Bible, but the key is that we are immersed into the triune God everyday, and that we eat His flesh and drink His blood. That in turn requires maintaining the fellowship with all saints and being reconciled with everyone who is offended with you.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Of course. v.13 says "having believed". That's who are sealed with the Holy Spirit. So the guarantee in v.14 is for those "having believed".


Yes.


Yes. What is your point?


I suppose you think a choice to no longer believe releases Jesus' promise about those He gives eternal life??? Why? Prove it with Scripture, not your opinion.
it doesn't matter about the Promise. the Promise is based upon you CHOOSING to Trust. if you choose to stop trusting there is no longer any Promise. the Person holds the position to which they want to be in. God is only rewarding those WHO continue to Trust Him!




FreeGrace2 said:
You didn't answer my question regarding 2 Cor 1:21 and 5:5. Do you have an answer?
2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Now, could you please explain what Paul meant by "guaranteeing what is to come" in these 2 verses.
Paul also tells us only when we TRUST God are we Sealed and Guaranteed. and since that is OUR DECISION to make, we can Trust today and stop trusting tomorrow. but the Guarantee [[is ONLY]] based upon if we continue to TRUST in God!
 
Nov 23, 2021
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Yes, we have a covenant. A covenant is a legal contract, there are promises, but there are also obligations on both sides. When I was a teacher I would start the year with a contract. I told my kids if they followed my lead and did what I said that not only would they pass the class but they would pass the state exam at the end of the year. There were at least six other teachers in the same building teaching the same subject and they had about half their kids pass the exam. So this was a very bold promise. I remember one kid came to see me after the state exam to see what he had got. He was one of those kids that had kept his side of the bargain. I looked at my sheet and grimaced and said 'I was sorry he had missed it by one point. You got an 89, one more point and you would have had a 90'. He was in shock, when I said he had missed it by one point he thought he had failed the exam. These were kids who were used to failure, expected to fail, so even after a year they still had a hard time believing they were capable of being honors students. But they have to obey. You have to show up to class and do the assignments.

We have a lot of promises in the Bible, but the key is that we are immersed into the triune God everyday, and that we eat His flesh and drink His blood. That in turn requires maintaining the fellowship with all saints and being reconciled with everyone who is offended with you.
In total agreement ZNP. Our part is to hear and do. Not just hear. " That in turn requires maintaining the fellowship with all saints and being reconciled with everyone who is offended with you." I assume you are referring to "When you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother has ought against you first be reconciled to your brother and then come and offer your gift". I do the best I can but sometimes you just get unfriended and they live overseas or stateside and are offended when we are the ones that should be offended. One of the more difficult sayings of Jesus in complex circumstances, when the offended is in need of repentance for example. In which case , I might just let them go their way. Thanks for sharing
 

Grandpa

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As for OSAS, I still haven't found an OSAS proponent who can explain this simple verse: "32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.35“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

This is the exact opposite of what Jesus would have said if He wanted to teach OSAS. In fact, if He had, the wicked servant could have said, to the Master, "Oops, too late! you already forgave me once! Hence, I am once saved, always saved, and cannot go to Hell". But he couldn't and did go to Hell. How anyone can say, as was said above, that going to Hell has nothing to do with Salvation is beyond me. Salvation is precisely deliverance from Hell.
The Lord already paid the price to forgive ALL debts.

But only believers receive this forgiveness.

This receiving CAUSES something in the believer. If I can be forgiven of all my sin, even the really BAD stuff, then surely I can forgive small trespasses against myself.


If I don't forgive these small trespasses then the Love of the Father isn't in me. I have an artificial, superflous, intellectual belief in the general forgiveness of sin but I have not taken the forgiveness of my sin PERSONALLY.

A SAVED person is changed from the inside. Starting with the Heart. A Heart that is forgiven, FORGIVES. A Heart that is Loved, LOVES. A person that doesn't TRULY believe he is forgiven DOESN'T forgive. A person who doesn't TRULY believe he is loved DOESN'T Love.


If the Lord wanted to contradict His Word in John 10:26-29 He wouldn't use "what if" scenarios. He would be direct. As He was direct in John 10.
 

Grandpa

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it doesn't matter about the Promise. the Promise is based upon you CHOOSING to Trust. if you choose to stop trusting there is no longer any Promise. the Person holds the position to which they want to be in. God is only rewarding those WHO continue to Trust Him!






Paul also tells us only when we TRUST God are we Sealed and Guaranteed. and since that is OUR DECISION to make, we can Trust today and stop trusting tomorrow. but the Guarantee [[is ONLY]] based upon if we continue to TRUST in God!
You don't have a choice in what you trust.

Trust comes with experience. Once you experience what is trustworthy you CAN'T just stop trusting it. It's already proven.


Try it. Try not trusting something that you absolutely trust in. Like gravity. Like objects falling to the earth. Try not trusting in that. Seems stupid, right?