One taken,one left. The rapture.

[arthurfleminger]

It's important to know who the creator of the Rapture Doctrine was. Here is John Nelson Darby's bio is easy to look up: John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia

Find the truth, research John Nelson Darby.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Both Darby and Scofield claimed that the "day of Christ" refers to the rapture and that "the day of the Lord" refers to the actual second coming several years after the rapture.

I'm not sure what those two men in particular believed regarding those two phrases (which are indeed "distinct" matters), but "the day of the Lord" (which INCLUDES His Second Coming to the earth Rev19, as well as the entire 1000-yr MK age) ALSO is said to "ARRIVE" at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3--parallel to what JESUS Himself spoke of in His Olivet Discourse...

...which PRECEDES (and LEADS UP TO) His Second Coming to the earth point in time... and are EQUIVALENT the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the future, specific, LIMITED time-period [the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, per 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1] we normally refer to as the "7 year period" (aka commonly called "the tribulation period" [admittedly, an inadequate term]) with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (2Th2:6; 9a... aka SEAL #1... aka Matt24:4's / Mk13:5's "G5100 - tis - "A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception]")... which is the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF the entire LONG earthly-located time-period known as "the DOTL" (involving JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth, over SOME TIME--not merely "a singular 24-hr 'day'")




____________

As far as "Darby" being the INVENTOR of such an idea, that matter has been long debunked (aside from the biblical texts, which our discussions rarely bring many to "agreement")... here's a post I made some time back showing of others who spoke [/wrote] of a DISTINCTION [time-wise] between the timing of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and that of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (tho some of us may differ in the specifics of how these folks understood it, they still saw the DISTINCTION [time-wise]):

Post #2594 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4568508

 

[FreeGrace2]

Everything you stated is in line with Scripture except for the last sentence.

This was the last sentence: "So of course there wouldn't be any evidence for a pretrib or prewrath rapture, since the giving of glorified bodies to living believers occurs WITH the resurrection of all believers."

Is this the sentnce that that don't agree with? If so, why?

"But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him." 1 Thess 5

The verse makes the point that man is not "appointed to wrath" but "to obtain salvation". How do you apply this verse to a prewrath rapture? BTW, the mention of God's wrath is applied differently in different contexts. In some, wrath refers specifically to the judgments during the Tribulation. But in others, it refers to God's judgment of disobedient children (His own).

Eph 5:6 - Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

The "children of disobedience" here refers to those believers who are living immoral, or impure, or greedy lives (see v.1-5).

Tribulation is not God's wrath, therefore no pre-trib verses in the Scripture.
Pre-wrath Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

OK, I see. You don't believe that God will deal in wrath with any of His children. Would you say that God dealt with Egypt with wrath, or what? There are similarities between the 10 plagues and the 3 sets of judgments in Revelation. Yet, the Jews STAYED in Egypt all the while that God was judging Egypt. But He protected them from His wrath.

Noah endured the greatest tribulation the world had seen up to that time.
Noah was not appointed to wrath but rose above the Flood/Wrath, being protected in the Ark (Christ).
Noah was a prophet and the example of faith for us as we wait for Christ's return.

Sure, there are examples of believers leaving the immediate area and examples of believers STAYING in the area.

The entire world was appointed to God's wrath = find out why.

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

Is this your support for your bolded statement?

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness,
bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
6and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8(for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
2 Peter 2:4-9

I don't see any support for a pre-wrath rapture.

I have already proven from Scripture that the singular resurrection (where the living believers are "raptured" to the clouds (but not to heaven) occurs at the Second Advent.

Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

I know pretribbers use this verse to support their view. Maybe pre-wrathers use it as well.

However, notice who will be "kept from the hour of trial": "you who have kept My command to endure patiently".

So, this verse isn't about every believer.

 

[kleronomos]

We see enoch, Elijah,and the 2 witnesses for starters.
Then those others i showed you guys.

THEY ARE THE TWO WITNESSES - not having yet tasted 'DEATH', but they will

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


HENCE THE 'TWO' WITNESSES. ALSO WHY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE 2 BILLION TO SKIP DEATH. IT WILL ONLY TAKE PLACE THE ONE TIME AND ONE TIME ONLY BECAUSE IT IS THE END OF THE AGE OF THE 'EARTHEN FLESH BODIED MAN'. THE LAST DAY OF THE END TIMES. HEAVEN IS COMING TO EARTH. THE REJECTED KINGDOM AND KING ARE COMING AND THIS TIME THERE WILL BE NO DISCUSSION, NO CHOICE. THE LORDS DAY BEGINS.




Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
HE APPEARS TO THOSE WHO ARE PASSING THROUGH DEATH A SECOND TIME so they can be WHERE HE IS.(heaven)
He appears a SECOND time to the ALIVE AND REMAINING at the end of the age so they can be where He is (earth on the Lords Day)

Which would mean ONE TIME TOO MANY FOR the so called 'trib saints' would it not?




Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Why was it Jesus taught in parables?

Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, AND WILL NOT TARRY.

 

[kleronomos]

Look it's not that complicated. There's just one key message of the Olivet Discourse - when you see these signs, RUUUUUNNNNN!!! Some will listen and run, others will call you a rightwing conspiracy theorist and stay, hence "one taken, one left." Everything after Matt. 24:31 is illustrations and parables of such REACTIONS, there's not one word about a "secret rapture" or any indication of another "coming".

As I don't believe in a 'pre trib' secret rapture I have no problem. GOOD TO SEE you don't either. AND I AGREE there is not one word FROM GOD about a 'rapture' be it secret or otherwise pre trib. ALL it does is serve to STEAL the glory from His second coming.

 

[DavidTree]

This was the last sentence: "So of course there wouldn't be any evidence for a pretrib or prewrath rapture, since the giving of glorified bodies to living believers occurs WITH the resurrection of all believers."

Is this the sentnce that that don't agree with? If so, why?


The verse makes the point that man is not "appointed to wrath" but "to obtain salvation". How do you apply this verse to a prewrath rapture? BTW, the mention of God's wrath is applied differently in different contexts. In some, wrath refers specifically to the judgments during the Tribulation. But in others, it refers to God's judgment of disobedient children (His own).

Eph 5:6 - Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

The "children of disobedience" here refers to those believers who are living immoral, or impure, or greedy lives (see v.1-5).


OK, I see. You don't believe that God will deal in wrath with any of His children. Would you say that God dealt with Egypt with wrath, or what? There are similarities between the 10 plagues and the 3 sets of judgments in Revelation. Yet, the Jews STAYED in Egypt all the while that God was judging Egypt. But He protected them from His wrath.


Sure, there are examples of believers leaving the immediate area and examples of believers STAYING in the area.


Is this your support for your bolded statement?


I don't see any support for a pre-wrath rapture.

I have already proven from Scripture that the singular resurrection (where the living believers are "raptured" to the clouds (but not to heaven) occurs at the Second Advent.

Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

I know pretribbers use this verse to support their view. Maybe pre-wrathers use it as well.

However, notice who will be "kept from the hour of trial": "you who have kept My command to endure patiently".

So, this verse isn't about every believer.

The sentence is correct except for the "evidence of pre-wrath rapture".

Since it is clear from Scripture that we are not appointed to God's wrath = 1 Thess 5

I am only referring to God's Wrath upon the children of disobedience = Ephesians 2:1-3 & 2 Peter2:9

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"

 

[kleronomos]

What is Genesis to you? Just a generalization?? A brief comment of.............???

Woven thoughout Scripture
is the Harmony of His Plan
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me or to other men
But to God who alone
Holds the Eternal Pen

The LORD spoke in parables for this very reason
Wisdom eluding the evil hearts of men in treason
for HE alone reveals the unkown, seen yet unseen
that we as children may draw near with our heart
to hear from the Spirit that which He departs
Scripture upon scripture, line upon line
Seeing with the Spirit is both Just and Fine
Noah upon the waters - raised above the Crime

I really like that. Thank you

This is for that 'wrath' thing

Psalm 90:1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.

8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.

9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.

12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.

13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.

14 O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.

15 Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.

16 Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.

17 And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.

 

[DavidTree]

This was the last sentence: "So of course there wouldn't be any evidence for a pretrib or prewrath rapture, since the giving of glorified bodies to living believers occurs WITH the resurrection of all believers."

Is this the sentnce that that don't agree with? If so, why?


The verse makes the point that man is not "appointed to wrath" but "to obtain salvation". How do you apply this verse to a prewrath rapture? BTW, the mention of God's wrath is applied differently in different contexts. In some, wrath refers specifically to the judgments during the Tribulation. But in others, it refers to God's judgment of disobedient children (His own).

Eph 5:6 - Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

The "children of disobedience" here refers to those believers who are living immoral, or impure, or greedy lives (see v.1-5).


OK, I see. You don't believe that God will deal in wrath with any of His children. Would you say that God dealt with Egypt with wrath, or what? There are similarities between the 10 plagues and the 3 sets of judgments in Revelation. Yet, the Jews STAYED in Egypt all the while that God was judging Egypt. But He protected them from His wrath.


Sure, there are examples of believers leaving the immediate area and examples of believers STAYING in the area.


Is this your support for your bolded statement?


I don't see any support for a pre-wrath rapture.

I have already proven from Scripture that the singular resurrection (where the living believers are "raptured" to the clouds (but not to heaven) occurs at the Second Advent.

Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

I know pretribbers use this verse to support their view. Maybe pre-wrathers use it as well.

However, notice who will be "kept from the hour of trial": "you who have kept My command to endure patiently".

So, this verse isn't about every believer.

YES, there are episodes of God pouring out His Wrath = Noah & Lot escaped are given to us as examples.

YES, God also was poured out, in part, His wrath upon the nation Israel when He sent the Babylonians.

For the specific element concerning the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture, i am focusing in on Genesis, the Prophets Noah Daniel & Job, Matt 24, 1 & 2 Thess, 1 John, 2 Peter, James ch5, Revelation

 

[kleronomos]

One has to play fast and loose with Scripture and twist and turn the words this way and that way in order to come up with the concept of the pretrib Rapture. In fact the concept didn't even arise until the 1800's when a preacher named John Darby came up with the concept. The only place you'll find evidence of the Rapture in the Bible is in the footnotes of the Schofield Bible where they describe events according to Darby's ideas. Of course, these footnotes are non Scriptural. Below is a site to the complete story as to how the 'Rapture Doctrine' came about, all John Darby: Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD (bible.ca)

Thank you. I was told it started with the 1 Thess letter which the 2nd was supposed to clear up but didn't. Have you ever hear that or do you think they were making that up?

 

[kleronomos]

The sentence is correct except for the "evidence of pre-wrath rapture".

Since it is clear from Scripture that we are not appointed to God's wrath = 1 Thess 5

I am only referring to God's Wrath upon the children of disobedience = Ephesians 2:1-3 & 2 Peter2:9

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"

DOESN'T it seem impossible for GODS WRATH to touch THOSE in which HE IS DWELLING?

I don't understand why Christians are afraid of Gods Wrath coming upon the world of the DECEIVED? Do you? I believe and HAVE FAITH that GOD will deliver me RIGHT WHERE I STAND ON THAT DAY (if I am still here and able to stand anyhow, at this rate it isn't looking so good still with so much that must to take place before the start...)

And for that matter I don't understand why Christians are afraid of being here when Satan is. It isn't like we haven't gotten enough warning to 'be prepared'. I have put my armor on and I have faith it will keep the fiery darts away...

 

[kleronomos]

YES, there are episodes of God pouring out His Wrath = Noah & Lot escaped are given to us as examples.

YES, God also was poured out, in part, His wrath upon the nation Israel when He sent the Babylonians.

For the specific element concerning the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture, i am focusing in on Genesis, the Prophets Noah Daniel & Job, Matt 24, 1 & 2 Thess, 1 John, 2 Peter, James ch5, Revelation

Do you believe the likeness that the 'days of Noe' have in common with the end times has to do with ANGELS being on earth?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The sentence is correct except for the "evidence of pre-wrath rapture".

Well, that's what I've been trying to find: evidence for one. All you've done is generalize by mentioning Genesis.

Do you have specific verses?

Since it is clear from Scripture that we are not appointed to God's wrath = 1 Thess 5

I addressed that in my previous post.

I am only referring to God's Wrath upon the children of disobedience = Ephesians 2:1-3 & 2 Peter2:9

I also addressed Eph 5:1-6. Which was addressed to believers and a warning about having no inheritance in the kingdom.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"

I still have not seen any clear verses that would support a pre-wrath rapture. I suppose this pre-wrath rapture includes a trip to heaven. Am I correct?

I have shown all the verses that refer to the resurrection of the saved in the singular. And I have shown all the verses that place this singular resurrection AFTER the Trib, at the Second Advent.

So I cannot accept a pre-wrath rapture. That would mean there are 2 resurrections, yet the Bible speaks in the singular.

 

[FreeGrace2]

YES, there are episodes of God pouring out His Wrath = Noah & Lot escaped are given to us as examples.

YES, God also was poured out, in part, His wrath upon the nation Israel when He sent the Babylonians.

For the specific element concerning the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture, i am focusing in on Genesis, the Prophets Noah Daniel & Job, Matt 24, 1 & 2 Thess, 1 John, 2 Peter, James ch5, Revelation

I'm waiting for actual verses that support a pre-wrath rapture, if there are any. I know there aren't any in Revelation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

DOESN'T it seem impossible for GODS WRATH to touch THOSE in which HE IS DWELLING?

No, not at all. God absolutely does discipline His children when they are disobedient. Eph 5:1-6 is a clear warning to "children of disobedience" that lifestyles that are immoral, impure, or greedy will have no inheritance in the kingdom. And v.6 specifically speaks of God's wrath on "children of disobedience".

God's promise in Rev 3:10 is only to those who have "patiently endured". So, how do they miss the "hour of trial that is coming on the world"? The SAME WAY God protected all of Israel during the 10 plagues of Egypt.

 

[DavidTree]

Do you believe the likeness that the 'days of Noe' have in common with the end times has to do with ANGELS being on earth?

There is nothing new under the sun, what has been will be = again = final showdown.

Thus Enoch was taken only to return.

 

[kleronomos]

No, not at all. God absolutely does discipline His children when they are disobedient. Eph 5:1-6 is a clear warning to "children of disobedience" that lifestyles that are immoral, impure, or greedy will have no inheritance in the kingdom. And v.6 specifically speaks of God's wrath on "children of disobedience".

God's promise in Rev 3:10 is only to those who have "patiently endured". So, how do they miss the "hour of trial that is coming on the world"? The SAME WAY God protected all of Israel during the 10 plagues of Egypt.

Sorry, I was just continuing on and so didn't add all the necessary details to that post to say I am BEING SPECIFIC TO THE LORDS DAY in which ALL the alive and remaining are changed not having taken the mark of the beast so when GODS WRATH or GREAT TRIB falls upon the whole world it will not be touching those who have endured to the end.

 

[Absolutely]

Rrdrdddddrrrrrrdrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrdrrrrrrdrrrdddddrdrdrdrdrdrrrrrdrrrrrdrdrdrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[DavidTree]

Well, that's what I've been trying to find: evidence for one. All you've done is generalize by mentioning Genesis.

Do you have specific verses?


I addressed that in my previous post.


I also addressed Eph 5:1-6. Which was addressed to believers and a warning about having no inheritance in the kingdom.


I still have not seen any clear verses that would support a pre-wrath rapture. I suppose this pre-wrath rapture includes a trip to heaven. Am I correct?

I have shown all the verses that refer to the resurrection of the saved in the singular. And I have shown all the verses that place this singular resurrection AFTER the Trib, at the Second Advent.

So I cannot accept a pre-wrath rapture. That would mean there are 2 resurrections, yet the Bible speaks in the singular.

Singular First Resurrection is for the Just = Revelation 2:11 and 20:1-6

After the Thousand Years the Great White Throne = Rev 20:7-15

 

[DavidTree]

I'm waiting for actual verses that support a pre-wrath rapture, if there are any. I know there aren't any in Revelation.

Start with this one - 1 Thess 1:9-10

For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,
10and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Notice how the Apostle ties in as one event = the Second Coming + Resurrection + Deliverance/Wrath

Deliverance for the Just
Wrath upon the disobedient

The disobedient will further be described as the "rebellion" and "falling away" by Paul in his 2nd Letter to Thessalonica believers.

 

[kleronomos]

Singular First Resurrection is for the Just = Revelation 2:11 and 20:1-6

After the Thousand Years the Great White Throne = Rev 20:7-15

HERE IS 1
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.



HERE IS ANOTHER

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



HERE IS YET ANOTHER

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


THERE ARE 3. What are your thoughts about those 3 resurrections? Do you think of the first as only the SAVED UNDER THE NEW COVENANT and not those who rose UNDER the NEW COVENANT but died under the old? And I won't ask any more questions right now.