The Bible uses numbers in interesting ways. For example, in the book of Joshua, Joshua leads the twelve tribes across the river Jordan to the other side. However, the name Jordan means 'judgment'. Also, Joshua is essentially the same name as Jesus. What we have is a picture of Jesus taking all of the true believers (pictured by the 12 tribes but representing the entirety of true believers throughout time) across to the other side of judgment unharmed. In like manner, when the twelve tribes are shown again in Revelation in the scripture you mention, it is again just a picture of true believers generally, as they are called the first fruits, as those from the church age generally. The number twelve and 144,000 are not likely to be literal but representative. Just as the five virgins who were wise represent more than a literal 5 persons who are saved. When the Bible says that these 144,000 are virgins, it means that they are followers of Christ, and does not mean that they have never been married, since the Bible says true believers can get married, it is not sin. When it says that the 144,000 have not defiled themselves with women, it means that they have not fallen away from the true gospel as the congregations (called women, as virgins without oil in their lamps) have at that time. The congregations become defiled and the scripture is indicating that the figurative 144,000 have followed God and not men who have become defiled through not following God.
Only 144,000 Virgen Men Redeemed From the Earth at The Pre Trib Rapture??!!!
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Greetings jb,
If you continue reading on, you will see that the order of events is as follows:
The One who is holding back the man of lawlessness, will continue to do so until He is taken out of the way, "then" the man of lawlessness will be revealed.
The One who is holding back the full force of sin and the man of lawlessness could only be the Holy Spirit. When the One who is holding him back is taken out of the way, then the church which the Holy Spirit indwells, must also be removed. Therefore, the order is Holy Spirit is removed and the Church with Him, then the man of lawlessness will be revealed.
The church will never see the antichrist.
If you continue reading on, you will see that the order of events is as follows:
The One who is holding back the man of lawlessness, will continue to do so until He is taken out of the way, "then" the man of lawlessness will be revealed.
The One who is holding back the full force of sin and the man of lawlessness could only be the Holy Spirit. When the One who is holding him back is taken out of the way, then the church which the Holy Spirit indwells, must also be removed. Therefore, the order is Holy Spirit is removed and the Church with Him, then the man of lawlessness will be revealed.
The church will never see the antichrist.
The bible does use numbers in interesting ways. For example the number of the beast is not 6 hundred and sixty six, but 6 three times. The number six is the number for man who is created on the sixth day, the number three is the number for God the Father, son and Holy spirit.
When we divide the number 144,000 by six three times, 144,000 divided by six = 24,000 divided by six = 4,000 divided by six = 666.6666666666666666666666 add infinity. the eternal God man.
When we divide the number 144,000 by six three times, 144,000 divided by six = 24,000 divided by six = 4,000 divided by six = 666.6666666666666666666666 add infinity. the eternal God man.
Sadly, that is not the case as Acts 2v16-21,38,39 clearly teaches that the baptism and gifts of the Spirit are available for the Church right throughout the whole of the age of Grace right until the 2nd coming of Christ! And this being the case your interpretation of 2Thess 2 is wrong, for the Holy Spirit remains upon the earth right up until the 2nd Coming of Christ, He is also responsible for the great revival that occurs during the Great tribulation during which multitudes are saved. Rev 7v9,10,14.
Must be two different kinds of antichrists, two kinds wives as the bride of Christ, two kinds of gospels .
I know Satan would have men believe the church will not see the revealing of him and his methodology. The veil is rent, the time of reformation has come. The Jews that are still waiting for the veil to be rent by rebuilding a temple made with human hands are shown as antichrists (many). The church does see the antichrists... it a warning to us what to watch for.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
I know Satan would have men believe the church will not see the revealing of him and his methodology. The veil is rent, the time of reformation has come. The Jews that are still waiting for the veil to be rent by rebuilding a temple made with human hands are shown as antichrists (many). The church does see the antichrists... it a warning to us what to watch for.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Because of the reformation the government of God was restored to a previous time period when the flesh of a Jew was no longer used to represent the bride of Christ in parables. God use the apostles as sent ones. seeing the temple where men went into was no longer available. we are sent out two by two.
Dan like Judas as are used as examples of the anti-christs or another gospel to establish the pupose of the number twelve ,.to give us the idea of the fullness of all the saints that make up the one bride of Christ, the church .
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall "fall backward".
There he uses a serpent to represent a false prophet brining false prophecy .Falling backward is used to represent men under the judgment of God or God bringing fire from heaven throughout the scripture.
Judas used in the same way (13-1 = 12) typifies all of those who have went out from us because they were no of us.
They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Joh 18:5
Again went backward, and fell to the ground indicates some are following another gospel.. just as Genesis uses Dan to help reconcile the p\urpose of the word twelve the new testement uses Judah
Today the phenomena of falling back or backwards is a new innovation it has been added to those who seek after a sign(walking by sight) like that of tongues. Falling back or what they call slain in the spirit or drinking poison they are signs that works against them just as the sign tongues.
Whats next seeing as goods increase so do those who consume them . "Holy Laughter"?
Yea! righto. Come back when you have found out why the tribe of Dan is not counted among the 144, 000, who are the required number of Jews and Gentiles who are of the risen body of the Lord who filled the man Jesus with his spirit and was the one who ceased to be an individual being [He cannot die] by releasing all the spirits of the righteous ,which had been gathered to him in his ascent and evolution to the ends of time. HE, who was the chosen corner-stone to the new glorious Temple of light beings, which will replace mankind, the old tent/tabernacle of God. The stone that the builders of the Jewish and Roman churches have rejected, which stone has become the most important of all.
Those spirits who came out of their graves when the spirit of the Lord abandoned Jesus on the cross as he cried out; "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me," and three days later on the day of the resurrection they went into the holy city and showed themselves as the risen body of our Lord and saviour.
These, who are the body of our Lord, who are to take the thrones that have been prepared for them and judge the whole world with Justice with their son Jesus, for a thousand years, now live as God lives, gathering to themselves the spirits of their righteous descendants, and when they have each gathered the required amount whose righteous blood will be the ransom price for their chosen earthly host body, they like he, who was the chosen corner stone, who filled the man Jesus with his spirit, will be reborn on earth and take the thrones that have been prepared for them.
But this does not answer the question of why Dan is not counted among the 144,000, does it?
Those spirits who came out of their graves when the spirit of the Lord abandoned Jesus on the cross as he cried out; "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me," and three days later on the day of the resurrection they went into the holy city and showed themselves as the risen body of our Lord and saviour.
These, who are the body of our Lord, who are to take the thrones that have been prepared for them and judge the whole world with Justice with their son Jesus, for a thousand years, now live as God lives, gathering to themselves the spirits of their righteous descendants, and when they have each gathered the required amount whose righteous blood will be the ransom price for their chosen earthly host body, they like he, who was the chosen corner stone, who filled the man Jesus with his spirit, will be reborn on earth and take the thrones that have been prepared for them.
But this does not answer the question of why Dan is not counted among the 144,000, does it?
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The verses in question are not saying that the figurative 144,000 are men. It says that they are redeemed from among men (meaning redeemed from mankind). Certainly, women are part of this group. The verses also say that they have not defiled themselves with women. This does not mean that they have never been married and it does not mean that they are men who have never had sexual relations with women. It means that they have not followed those who defile the way, they have not followed the way of the whore Babylon, the fallen congregations. They can be men or women but they have not followed those who defile the way. When the scripture says that they are virgins, it means that they are of the group of persons set aside to be espoused to Christ. That is what the parable of the 10 virgins is all about. It does not mean that they are literal physical virgins who have never had physical sex. It means that they are to be espoused to Christ alone and are set apart for him and not another.
Hello birdie,
With all due respect, you are wrong on both counts.
John hears the number of those that were sealed, 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. Following that, the 144,000 are broken down into 12,000 for each tribe. In addition, the number 144,000 remains consistent being referred to in Rev.14.
Furthermore, the 144,000 are indeed all males:
"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. "
That they did not defile themselves with woman, would infer that they are all males. And if you can receive it, the "Male Child" which the woman gives birth to, is a collective name for the 144,000.
With all due respect, you are wrong on both counts.
John hears the number of those that were sealed, 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. Following that, the 144,000 are broken down into 12,000 for each tribe. In addition, the number 144,000 remains consistent being referred to in Rev.14.
Furthermore, the 144,000 are indeed all males:
"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. "
That they did not defile themselves with woman, would infer that they are all males. And if you can receive it, the "Male Child" which the woman gives birth to, is a collective name for the 144,000.
In Numbers 31, 1000 from each of the 12 tribes are chosen for the battle for Midian to avenge the deaths of 24000 men of Israel who fell for the fornication leading to idolatry in Numbers 25. The law of first mention makes the 144,000 Jewish. There are 23000 Israelites killed in one day according to 1 Corinthians 10:8, by plague we find out in Num. 31 where Balak the false prophet is executed. He came up with the plan to tempt Israel. Balak is mentioned in Rev. 2 as is Jezebel who was thrown from a window by 2 or 3 eunuchs in 2 Kings 9 at Jehu's request. The number 23 and the phrase (2 or 3) represents Jesus.
Actually, you are combining two events into one as Paul is really talking about 2 events at the same time.
I suggest reading that chapter in the KJV before discerning the actual message. Why?
1 Peter 4:17-19 testify that God will judge His House first.. BECAUSE of the falling away from the faith and this will occur at the pre trib rapture event.
If you look at the purpose of excommunication by the church symbolically, then you can see how God will do this excommunication literally.
1 Corinthians 5:[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Will not war be wage on the saints during the great tribulation? So God will judge His House first.
Revelation 2:[SUP]21 [/SUP]And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. [SUP]25[/SUP]But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
And so the Lord Jesus Christ will deal with the falling away from the faith first as the coming Bridegroom, and then He will deal with that son of perdition when He comes back as the King of kings with the pre raptured saints; Zechariah 14:1-5
Paul addresses the iniquity that causes the falling away from the faith happening back in even in his day... as he will let until he be taken out of the way is referring to those who believe they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign of tongues without interpretation or other signs of confusion. God will permit the strong delusion to occur because they believed that lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign. The damnation is to be left behind to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation, unless they repent and with His help, cease to speak the utter depths of Satan for which they speak and pray normally.
Proof of this is by how Paul reproved that iniquity by reminding them all of the tradition taught for which they were to hold fast.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way......[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,[SUP] 10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:[SUP] 12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[SUP] 13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Paul pointed out that those who fell away are still brothers in the next chapter even though they are wicked & unreasonable men not having faith and not walking after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly, but we are commanded to withdraw from these unrepentive brothers but to admonish them not as enemies, but as brothers still. 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15
And so there are two events being spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter as that iniquity was present in Paul's day and still is present to this day for the reason why God will judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event.
I suggest reading that chapter in the KJV before discerning the actual message. Why?
1 Peter 4:17-19 testify that God will judge His House first.. BECAUSE of the falling away from the faith and this will occur at the pre trib rapture event.
If you look at the purpose of excommunication by the church symbolically, then you can see how God will do this excommunication literally.
1 Corinthians 5:[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Will not war be wage on the saints during the great tribulation? So God will judge His House first.
Revelation 2:[SUP]21 [/SUP]And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. [SUP]25[/SUP]But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
And so the Lord Jesus Christ will deal with the falling away from the faith first as the coming Bridegroom, and then He will deal with that son of perdition when He comes back as the King of kings with the pre raptured saints; Zechariah 14:1-5
Paul addresses the iniquity that causes the falling away from the faith happening back in even in his day... as he will let until he be taken out of the way is referring to those who believe they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign of tongues without interpretation or other signs of confusion. God will permit the strong delusion to occur because they believed that lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign. The damnation is to be left behind to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation, unless they repent and with His help, cease to speak the utter depths of Satan for which they speak and pray normally.
Proof of this is by how Paul reproved that iniquity by reminding them all of the tradition taught for which they were to hold fast.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way......[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,[SUP] 10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:[SUP] 12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[SUP] 13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Paul pointed out that those who fell away are still brothers in the next chapter even though they are wicked & unreasonable men not having faith and not walking after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly, but we are commanded to withdraw from these unrepentive brothers but to admonish them not as enemies, but as brothers still. 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15
And so there are two events being spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter as that iniquity was present in Paul's day and still is present to this day for the reason why God will judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event.