Open Challenge to UPCI people here
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The topic is,
Make a list of UPCI doctrines and try to find them in the early church fathers. The quotes, I next three posts proves that the early church believed in the Trinity and that Sabellianism which UPCI believes in was condemned by the early Church.
Your quotes should only come from primary sources and give a link to newadvent.org where you got the quotes.
Bottom line, if you can not find your views, doctrines outside the NT in the writings of the early church fathers who were taught by the apostles themselves or by someone the apostles taught, then the doctrines you endorse are not true interpretations of the Bible.
Make a list of UPCI doctrines and try to find them in the early church fathers. The quotes, I next three posts proves that the early church believed in the Trinity and that Sabellianism which UPCI believes in was condemned by the early Church.
Your quotes should only come from primary sources and give a link to newadvent.org where you got the quotes.
Bottom line, if you can not find your views, doctrines outside the NT in the writings of the early church fathers who were taught by the apostles themselves or by someone the apostles taught, then the doctrines you endorse are not true interpretations of the Bible.
XXI. If any man says that the Holy Spirit is a part of the Father or of the Son: let him be anathema.
XXII. If any man says that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three Gods: let him be anathema.
...
85. But perhaps on the opposite side it will be said that it ought to meet with disapproval, because an erroneous interpretation is generally put upon it. If such is our fear, we ought to erase the words of the Apostle, There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5, because Photinus uses this to support his heresy, and refuse to read it because he interprets it mischievously. And the fire or the sponge should annihilate the Epistle to the Philippians, lest Marcion should read again in it, And was found in fashion as a man Philippians 2:7, and say Christ's body was only a phantasm and not a body. Away with the Gospel of John, lest Sabellius learn from it, I and the Father are one. John 10:30 Nor must those who now affirm the Son to be a creature find it written, The Father is greater than I. Nor must those who wish to declare that the Son is unlike the Father read: But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32 We must dispense, too, with the books of Moses, lest the darkness be thought coeval with God who dwells in the unborn light, since in Genesis the day began to be after the night; lest the years of Methuselah extend later than the date of the deluge, and consequently more than eight souls were saved ; lest God hearing the cry of Sodom when the measure of its sins was full should come down as though ignorant of the cry to see if the measure of its sins was full according to the cry, and be found to be ignorant of what He knew; lest any one of those who buried Moses should have known his sepulchre when he was buried; lest these passages, as the heretics think, should prove that the contradictions of the law make it its own enemy. So as they do not understand them, we ought not to read them. And though I should not have said it myself unless forced by the argument, we must, if it seems fit, abolish all the divine and holy Gospels with their message of our salvation, lest their statements be found inconsistent; lest we should read that the Lord who was to send the Holy Spirit was Himself born of the Holy Spirit; lest He who was to threaten death by the sword to those who should take the sword, should before His passion command that a sword should be brought; lest He who was about to descend into hell should say that He would be in paradise with the thief; lest finally the Apostles should be found at fault, in that when commanded to baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, they baptized in the name of Jesus only. I speak to you, brethren, to you, who are no longer nourished with milk, but with meat, and are strong. Hebrews 5:12 Shall we, because the wise men of the world have not understood these things, and they are foolish unto them, be wise as the world is wise and believe these things foolish? Because they are hidden from the godless, shall we refuse to shine with the truth of a doctrine which we understand? We prejudice the cause of divine doctrines when we think that they ought not to exist, because some do not regard them as holy. If so, we must not glory in the cross of Christ, because it is a stumbling-block to the world; and we must not preach death in connection with the living God, lest the godless argue that God is dead.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3301.htm
above is the text for you to read in context.
Luke 1:35 gives the impression that the Holy Spirit put Jesus in Mary's womb, so in that sense Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit.
XXII. If any man says that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three Gods: let him be anathema.
...
85. But perhaps on the opposite side it will be said that it ought to meet with disapproval, because an erroneous interpretation is generally put upon it. If such is our fear, we ought to erase the words of the Apostle, There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5, because Photinus uses this to support his heresy, and refuse to read it because he interprets it mischievously. And the fire or the sponge should annihilate the Epistle to the Philippians, lest Marcion should read again in it, And was found in fashion as a man Philippians 2:7, and say Christ's body was only a phantasm and not a body. Away with the Gospel of John, lest Sabellius learn from it, I and the Father are one. John 10:30 Nor must those who now affirm the Son to be a creature find it written, The Father is greater than I. Nor must those who wish to declare that the Son is unlike the Father read: But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32 We must dispense, too, with the books of Moses, lest the darkness be thought coeval with God who dwells in the unborn light, since in Genesis the day began to be after the night; lest the years of Methuselah extend later than the date of the deluge, and consequently more than eight souls were saved ; lest God hearing the cry of Sodom when the measure of its sins was full should come down as though ignorant of the cry to see if the measure of its sins was full according to the cry, and be found to be ignorant of what He knew; lest any one of those who buried Moses should have known his sepulchre when he was buried; lest these passages, as the heretics think, should prove that the contradictions of the law make it its own enemy. So as they do not understand them, we ought not to read them. And though I should not have said it myself unless forced by the argument, we must, if it seems fit, abolish all the divine and holy Gospels with their message of our salvation, lest their statements be found inconsistent; lest we should read that the Lord who was to send the Holy Spirit was Himself born of the Holy Spirit; lest He who was to threaten death by the sword to those who should take the sword, should before His passion command that a sword should be brought; lest He who was about to descend into hell should say that He would be in paradise with the thief; lest finally the Apostles should be found at fault, in that when commanded to baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, they baptized in the name of Jesus only. I speak to you, brethren, to you, who are no longer nourished with milk, but with meat, and are strong. Hebrews 5:12 Shall we, because the wise men of the world have not understood these things, and they are foolish unto them, be wise as the world is wise and believe these things foolish? Because they are hidden from the godless, shall we refuse to shine with the truth of a doctrine which we understand? We prejudice the cause of divine doctrines when we think that they ought not to exist, because some do not regard them as holy. If so, we must not glory in the cross of Christ, because it is a stumbling-block to the world; and we must not preach death in connection with the living God, lest the godless argue that God is dead.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3301.htm
above is the text for you to read in context.
Luke 1:35 gives the impression that the Holy Spirit put Jesus in Mary's womb, so in that sense Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit.
From the same source, "64. Kept always from guile by the gift of the Holy Spirit, we confess and write of our own will that there are not two Gods but one God; nor do we therefore deny that the Son of God is also God; for He is God of God. " https://christianchat.com/threads/open-challenge-to-upci-people-here.189447/reply?quote=4119967
Here is the new thread worth discussing this time of year.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...k-jesus-was-born-from-the-holy-spirit.189463/
Here is the new thread worth discussing this time of year.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...k-jesus-was-born-from-the-holy-spirit.189463/
Ur problem is very clear. U rely on the wisdom of man rather than the wisdom of God. The Holy Spirit is where all understanding comes from.
Men have been screwing things up since Adam. But, shoot. if that's what miss ur lawn...then enjoy.
Cut n paste Articles r not all that impressive BTW
Men have been screwing things up since Adam. But, shoot. if that's what miss ur lawn...then enjoy.
Cut n paste Articles r not all that impressive BTW
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"In Christianity, Sabellianism in the Eastern church or Patripassianism in the Western church is the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different modes or aspects of God, as opposed to a Trinitarian view of three distinct persons within the Godhead. https://orthodoxwiki.org/Sabellianism
"Modalism, or Sabellianism, is inadequate view of the nature of God. The doctrine arises from a bishop in the early church named Sabellius. Modalism teaches that only one God exists and that the three persons listed in the Bible, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are modes or manifestations of the one God. As one human being may be a father, son, and husband at the same time, yet the person is only one individual, so it is true with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. There are no distinct persons within the nature of God from the modalistic point of view. It is Unitarian in that it accepts only one Person in the Godhead https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_338.cfm
https://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2016/sabellianism/
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/sabellianism
"Sabellian baptisms were performed in one name only, not in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Insisting upon a non-Trinitarian formula ignores Jesus’ words that emphasize God’s triune nature in Matthew 28:19, “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
https://www.gotquestions.org/Sabellianism.html
Hope this helps friend.
see material in other thread, https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...k-jesus-was-born-from-the-holy-spirit.189463/
"
Against the Sabellians
1. Now truly it would be just to dispute against those who, by dividing and rending the monarchy, which is the most august announcement of the Church of God, into, as it were, three powers, and distinct substances (hypostases), and three deities, destroy it. For I have heard that some who preach and teach the word of God among you are teachers of this opinion, who indeed diametrically, so to speak, are opposed to the opinion of Sabellius. For he blasphemes in saying that the Son Himself is the Father, and vice versa; but these in a certain manner announce three gods, in that they divide the holy unity into three different substances, absolutely separated from one another. For it is essential that the Divine Word should be united to the God of all, and that the Holy Spirit should abide and dwell in God; and thus that the Divine Trinity should be reduced and gathered into one, as if into a certain head — that is, into the omnipotent God of all. For the doctrine of the foolish Marcion, which cuts and divides the monarchy into three elements, is assuredly of the devil, and is not of Christ's true disciples, or of those to whom the Saviour's teaching is agreeable. For these indeed rightly know that the Trinity is declared in the divine Scripture, but that the doctrine that there are three gods is neither taught in the Old nor in the New Testament.
2. But neither are they less to be blamed who think that the Son was a creation, and decided that the Lord was made just as one of those things which really were made; whereas the divine declarations testify that He was begotten, as is fitting and proper, but not that He was created or made. It is therefore not a trifling, but a very great impiety, to say that the Lord was in any wise made with hands. For if the Son was made, there was a time when He was not; but He always was, if, as He Himself declares, He is undoubtedly in the Father. And if Christ is the Word, the Wisdom, and the Power — for the divine writings tell us that Christ is these, as you yourselves know — assuredly these are powers of God. Wherefore, if the Son was made, there was a time when these were not in existence; and thus there was a time when God was without these things, which is utterly absurd. But why should I discourse at greater length to you about these matters, since you are men filled with the Spirit, and especially understanding what absurd results follow from the opinion which asserts that the Son was made? The leaders of this view seem to me to have given very little heed to these things, and for that reason to have strayed absolutely, by explaining the passage otherwise than as the divine and prophetic Scripture demands. The Lord created me the beginning of His ways. For, as you know, there is more than one signification of the word created; and in this place created is the same as set over the works made by Himself — made, I say, by the Son Himself. But this created is not to be understood in the same manner as made. For to make and to create are different from one another. Is not He Himself your Father, that has possessed you and created you? says Moses in the great song of Deuteronomy. And thus might any one reasonably convict these men. Oh reckless and rash men! Was then the first-born of every creature something made?— He who was begotten from the womb before the morning star? — He who in the person of Wisdom says, Before all the hills He begot me? Proverbs 8:25 Finally, any one may read in many parts of the divine utterances that the Son is said to have been begotten, but never that He was made. From which considerations, they who dare to say that His divine and inexplicable generation was a creation, are openly convicted of thinking that which is false concerning the generation of the Lord.
3. That admirable and divine unity, therefore, must neither be separated into three divinities, nor must the dignity and eminent greatness of the Lord be diminished by having applied to it the name of creation, but we must believe in God the Father Omnipotent, and on Christ Jesus His Son, and on the Holy Spirit. Moreover, that the Word is united to the God of all, because He says, I and the Father are one; John 10:30 and, I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me. John 14:10 Thus doubtless will be maintained in its integrity the doctrine of the divine Trinity, and the sacred announcement of the monarchy."
" http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0713.htm
Against the Sabellians
1. Now truly it would be just to dispute against those who, by dividing and rending the monarchy, which is the most august announcement of the Church of God, into, as it were, three powers, and distinct substances (hypostases), and three deities, destroy it. For I have heard that some who preach and teach the word of God among you are teachers of this opinion, who indeed diametrically, so to speak, are opposed to the opinion of Sabellius. For he blasphemes in saying that the Son Himself is the Father, and vice versa; but these in a certain manner announce three gods, in that they divide the holy unity into three different substances, absolutely separated from one another. For it is essential that the Divine Word should be united to the God of all, and that the Holy Spirit should abide and dwell in God; and thus that the Divine Trinity should be reduced and gathered into one, as if into a certain head — that is, into the omnipotent God of all. For the doctrine of the foolish Marcion, which cuts and divides the monarchy into three elements, is assuredly of the devil, and is not of Christ's true disciples, or of those to whom the Saviour's teaching is agreeable. For these indeed rightly know that the Trinity is declared in the divine Scripture, but that the doctrine that there are three gods is neither taught in the Old nor in the New Testament.
2. But neither are they less to be blamed who think that the Son was a creation, and decided that the Lord was made just as one of those things which really were made; whereas the divine declarations testify that He was begotten, as is fitting and proper, but not that He was created or made. It is therefore not a trifling, but a very great impiety, to say that the Lord was in any wise made with hands. For if the Son was made, there was a time when He was not; but He always was, if, as He Himself declares, He is undoubtedly in the Father. And if Christ is the Word, the Wisdom, and the Power — for the divine writings tell us that Christ is these, as you yourselves know — assuredly these are powers of God. Wherefore, if the Son was made, there was a time when these were not in existence; and thus there was a time when God was without these things, which is utterly absurd. But why should I discourse at greater length to you about these matters, since you are men filled with the Spirit, and especially understanding what absurd results follow from the opinion which asserts that the Son was made? The leaders of this view seem to me to have given very little heed to these things, and for that reason to have strayed absolutely, by explaining the passage otherwise than as the divine and prophetic Scripture demands. The Lord created me the beginning of His ways. For, as you know, there is more than one signification of the word created; and in this place created is the same as set over the works made by Himself — made, I say, by the Son Himself. But this created is not to be understood in the same manner as made. For to make and to create are different from one another. Is not He Himself your Father, that has possessed you and created you? says Moses in the great song of Deuteronomy. And thus might any one reasonably convict these men. Oh reckless and rash men! Was then the first-born of every creature something made?— He who was begotten from the womb before the morning star? — He who in the person of Wisdom says, Before all the hills He begot me? Proverbs 8:25 Finally, any one may read in many parts of the divine utterances that the Son is said to have been begotten, but never that He was made. From which considerations, they who dare to say that His divine and inexplicable generation was a creation, are openly convicted of thinking that which is false concerning the generation of the Lord.
3. That admirable and divine unity, therefore, must neither be separated into three divinities, nor must the dignity and eminent greatness of the Lord be diminished by having applied to it the name of creation, but we must believe in God the Father Omnipotent, and on Christ Jesus His Son, and on the Holy Spirit. Moreover, that the Word is united to the God of all, because He says, I and the Father are one; John 10:30 and, I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me. John 14:10 Thus doubtless will be maintained in its integrity the doctrine of the divine Trinity, and the sacred announcement of the monarchy."
" http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0713.htm
Ur doing the potato...potato thingy.
Belief in the Holy Trinity is the important thing. How one processes the Trinity 2 understand it has zero 2 do with salvation or eternal life.
Here, lemme make it simple 4 u.
God the Father...God OF man
God the Son...God AS man
God the HS...God within man
There... now u can give ur 'puterkeys a wee rest... All is x-plained
Belief in the Holy Trinity is the important thing. How one processes the Trinity 2 understand it has zero 2 do with salvation or eternal life.
Here, lemme make it simple 4 u.
God the Father...God OF man
God the Son...God AS man
God the HS...God within man
There... now u can give ur 'puterkeys a wee rest... All is x-plained
excommunicated Sabellius http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130105.htm on the trinity
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3202210.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130105.htm on the trinity
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3202210.htm
If you look at Bowman's outline which I posted a link to, then you would know I believe in the Trinity.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/bowman_robert/trinity/trinity.cfm
Philippians 2:5-11 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
Let Christ be your example of humility
5-11 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his prerogatives as God’s equal, but stripped himself of all privilege by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born as mortal man. And, having become man, he humbled himself by living a life of utter obedience, even to the extent of dying, and the death he died was the death of a common criminal. That is why God has now lifted him so high, and has given him the name beyond all names, so that at the name of Jesus “every knee shall bow”, whether in Heaven or earth or under the earth. And that is why, in the end, “every tongue shall confess” that Jesus Christ” is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/bowman_robert/trinity/trinity.cfm
Philippians 2:5-11 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
Let Christ be your example of humility
5-11 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his prerogatives as God’s equal, but stripped himself of all privilege by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born as mortal man. And, having become man, he humbled himself by living a life of utter obedience, even to the extent of dying, and the death he died was the death of a common criminal. That is why God has now lifted him so high, and has given him the name beyond all names, so that at the name of Jesus “every knee shall bow”, whether in Heaven or earth or under the earth. And that is why, in the end, “every tongue shall confess” that Jesus Christ” is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The way I understand the Father/Son/HS is that God is one God and He is Spirit. The same Spirit that formed Adam in the dirt, in a similar way formed the body (Son) known as Jesus Christ and dwells in that body as it is His body. And because He is Spirit and fully able to be omnipresent, The Spirit, or Comforter, Dwells in us as we are the Temples.
Could be wrong but I don't think I am. That's just how I understand it. Thank you for your time and interest.
Could be wrong but I don't think I am. That's just how I understand it. Thank you for your time and interest.